Sump plumbing

[ejaustin]

For those who may not keep all my details at the top of their minds at all times, the "main tank" is a 29 gallon, 30"x12"x18". The sump is a bit smaller than that.kay, I think I'm ready to connect the sump I got from Robert to the main tank. He explained the sump to me, so at least I know the intake side from the outlet side.

I also got an overflow box from Robert, so getting water from the tank to the sump seems pretty basic. Just get hoses that go from the outlet of the overflow box to the inlet of the sump. There *is* a bulkhead near the top of the inlet side, but from what I've read, there's really no problem with just putting the hoses right into the catch basin, as long as there's no way for them to wiggle out. Please, someone correct me if I'm wrong.

To get the water back to the tank, this is what I plan to do:

I'll use a powerhead for the pump and attach tubing to the outlet of the powerhead. Then I'll use a couple 90 degree PVC pieces to get over the top of the tank, with a hole drilled above the waterline on the elbow that's on the tank side (to break the suction there in the event of a power outage). I'm planning on putting that in the center of the top of the back of the tank.

Then I want to use clear tubing to run from the bottom of the PVC elbow on the inside the tank to a PVC pipe on the bottom of the tank. I'm thinking the tubing will be relatively unobstrusive and flexible in case I change the depth of the sand bed. That tube will go to a PVC T, with a piece of PVC pipe about 13" long on each side. I'll cap the ends of those pipes and cut outlet slots every 1.5" or so.

I have 2 questions:

First of all, am I on the right track or am I headed for certain disaster?

Secondly, what's the best adhesive for fixing the PVC pipe to the PVC T? Mostly aquarium applications seem to recommend silicon. Is that the stuff to use to join PVC to PVC, too?

ej

[GKarshens]

I couldn't exactly follow all of your description. Are you planning to use PVC all the way from the pump to the tank? If so that is the correct way. Use PVC primer then PVC glue to attach all pieces. The only other real option would be spa-flex tubing. Also what type power head are you planning to use for a return pump? You might have a hard time plumbing a power head. I have a Lifeline pump that will do 700 GPH with no head(distance travelled vertically) and about 450gph at 5' of head that you can have if you want it. It is a little dirty, but works fine. I would also suggest putting ball valves in your plumbing so you can regulate the flow, both to the sump and back to the tank. If you do want the pump I will gladly show you my plumbing while you are here.

[ejaustin]

Thanks for the response.

Actually, I was considering using just regular, transparent tubing where possible, mostly because it's flexible. (Also, it's easy to connect to the powerhead.) Getting over the hump of the edge of the aquarium, I was going to use PVC to avoid crimping. And PVC at the bottom because I think it would hold up to the pressure of the water coming out of the vents better and I don't want it snaking around in the tank like a hose. Not a good plan? (I'm really pretty clueless about this. I think I understand how it all works, but I don't know anything about plumbing materials except that metal and saltwater don't mix. I'd like to learn but prefer to avoid loss of life in the process.)

The powerhead is a Maxi-Jet 1200, rated at 295 gph (no head). I've had the powerhead in the tank for a week or so and it gives a very brisk flow that the fish seem to like and no one else seems to object to. (I have to confess I have a hard time telling which flowrate the snails and crabs prefer!)

The sump is about a foot away from the side of the tank, so if I feed it back into the center of the tank, the horizontal distance is about 3 feet or so. The vertical lift is less than that. About a foot. (The sump is on a table next to the tank. Lower than the tank but not on the floor.) I'll know I'll lose some of the power if I use the powerhead as the sump pump. Do you think more would be better? (The tank is 29 gallons gross and about 25 gallons gross, I think.)

Some kind of controller is a good idea. If I put a ball valve in both the line to the sump and the return line, does the line to the sump need to be more open than the line back to the tank? My understanding of this kind of system was that the water being pumped into the tank would cause the level to get high enough to drain into the overflow box, which would then be siphoned into the part of the overflow that's outside the tank, from where gravity would carry it to the sump through the outlet pipes. Seems like if the flow to the siphon is more restricted than the flow to the tank, a flood might ensue.

Even if you think the powerhead I have would work, I'd love to come and look at your plumbing. (Boy, that is a very weird sentence to utter!) I've looked at lots of diagrams and whatnot, but it's never quite the same as seeing a working system.

Thanks for your generous help.

ej

[Dhayden]

Its been a long time. But many years ago most of us did bare bottom tanks and used a t-bar much like you are thinking of. You ight find that you will build upa wall of sand in the front of the tank with that. But who knows. If I remember right I used regular pvc glue for it. Of course fully cure before in you put it in the tank I think that big pump might work out real well with all the elbows and t-bar etc.. your gonna be putting in. Havent seen anyone do that with sand though.

[Aquatic-J]

First of all I think that if you can invest in an actual return pump, you would be happier with the flow rate. I would recomend a quiet one or a mag. The first being inexpensive with low wattage power consumption. Also anywhere you can use y-tees instead of pvc tees would yield more flow. Any questions let me know

James

[GKarshens]

The problem with going from hose to PVC is the potential for leaks. It is near impossible to get it completely sealed. As to the rate of flow... Your overflow box will have a maximum amount of water it can drain an hour. If your return pump exceeds that flow you will have your display overflow. You can use a bigger pump and use the ball valve to keep it at any rate you want. If your pump is not moving much water the overflow will go at the same rate as the pump. Obviously it can only drain the water that is coming over the top of it. More than likely the overflow box could handle my pump at full flow, but that maybe more movement thru your sump than you want. That is why I like to have ball valves on both lines, because then it is completely adjustable.

The spray bar idea is not necessarily a bad one but like dhayden said at the bottom it may push your sand around. If you are plumbing the return to the center of the tank you could put a y on the return and have it blowing in opposite directions. That would give you movement thru the whole tank.

If you send me a PM we can set up a time for you to come by.

[hammondegge]

sounds like you are having fun EJ. i just found the full return manifold that i was using on the 40g with that sump. it should be easily modified for your tank. it has a backflow valve and PVC-tubing coupling glued in. it may have a ball valve on it too, i forget. it is yours if you want it. come on over and i will explain everything. sounds like you have it well conceptualized. where you go from pvc tube to vinyl tubing you need a PVC-barb coupling. the soft tubing fits over the barbed end and then you may hold it in place with a srew clamp. I vote for a proper return pump too. i dont know it the 1200 could push all of that water thru the plumbing. after defeating the head pressure you are going to want some flow left for the tank. i was using a Mag7 on the return for the 40g and could have used more flow, a mag 9.5 would have been perfect. the 7 or equivalent will probably be good on yours. The Lifeline that Gabe offered would be an equivalent pump.

[ejaustin]

Thanks for the replies, everyone. Y'all brought up several points I hadn't considered. (Sometimes when I think I have a bright idea, it's because I'm in a dimly-lit room. )

I going to meet with a couple people tomorrow for plumbing tours and discussions and hopefully I'll execute a better plan in the next couple days.

Again, thanks, all. I'll let you know what the final layout is and how well (or poorly) it works.

ej

[ejaustin]

Well, the first plan was pretty much scrapped. I've gone with all PVC from the pump in the sump (thanks, Gabriel) to the tank. I'm using a basic manifold (thanks, Robert) that will return the water near the top of the tank, coming out of 45 degree elbows in each of the two corners. After 2 or 3 trips to Home Depot, I have everything cut and pieced together.

It goes from the pump to a one-way valve to a ball valve. From there, all turns are through 45 degree elbows except at the manifold, which has a tee. It's not pretty and it takes some odd turns because my sump is in an odd position in relation to the tank, but there's one continuous path from the pump in the sump to the tank.

The next step is to fix everything together. I'm planning to use teflon tape at all the joins that are threaded and the PVC adhesive (with primer) at all joins that are not threaded. Gabriel warned me that the adhesive sets quickly, so I plan to do the teflon tape first and then take apart and apply the adhesive to each join, one at a time. It seems that I'm less likely to get anything out of line that way. Any other caveats to the final assembly process? After I've got it all together, I'll probably let it set overnight, just because.

Then I plan to take the whole thing out to the patio and use buckets to give everything a test run. I'll open the ball valve as wide as I can to try to ensure anything loose at the cuts gets blown through the pipes. (I'll use the pump for my skimmer to do the return to the bucket the sump pump is in, so I'll be restricted by its capacity.) I'm thinking an hour or two for the test run.

I know I can add more teflon tape if I get leaks at the threaded joins. What do I do if I get leaks at the joins I've used the adhesive on?

It seems like the trickiest part will be doing the actual connection between the tank and the sump, because I've already got critters in the main tank (to say nothing of the fascinating little guys at home in the sump), so I kind of need to drip-acclimate the two to each other. I think the best plan is to do partial water changes on both to get all the measurements as close as I can. Then I'll open the ball valve just enough to get a little flow and let it run like that for a while. Even at a low flow, it seems like things should equalize after a few hours, so I'm thinking I'll leave it at minimal flow for a day. After that I'll adjust the flow to the needs of the tank and the capacity of the equipment. (I forgot to say that I'll check that the sump doesn't overflow if the power fails.)

Is this a sound plan? What do y'all think?

ej

[GKarshens]

It all sounds good. You really shouldn't get any leaks from the normal joints, but if you some how do you can put more cement around the lip of the connection where it is leaking. Kind of like caulking it.

[hammondegge]

ej, when you glue a joint, prime both pieces, then put glue on both pieces and then twist the joint 45 degrees and back to where you want it. it then will not leak.

[ejaustin]

Okay, the piping's done and doesn't seem to leak and I can get water from the sump to the tank. But I can't figure out how to start the siphon for the overflow box. When I do a partial water change, I just fill the whole tube with water, cover the end with my finger, and put that end in the bucket. I can cover the ends of the J tubes with my palms, but I don't have enough room to get them in place without moving my hands and by the time I get the tube in place, the water has drained from both sides.

ej

[hammondegge]

i forgot to tell you that part.

feed a length of air line up to the top of the J-tube bend. position the air line so that the end is at the top of the J-tube or (better yet) just past the top, feeding from tank side to overflow side. put tube in place. fill the center of the overflow so the tube is submerged on both sides. suck the air out of the j-tube thru the air line. when all or almost all of the air is gone from the tube the siphon will start. pull out the air line.

if an air bubble is left at the top of the tube it might be drawn thru the tube with time. if the bubble is too big then repeat the above until it is free of air. then do the same with the second tube.

[hammondegge]

here is another mag pump if you are looking.

http://www.maast.org/index.php?name=PNphpB...ewtopic&t=20186

[dieselndixie]

i actually found that attaching the air hose (for starting syphon) to the U-tube using a (cant remember now the exact name) but it will let you suck air out, but wont allow anything to back flow - help on the name

anyway, you can glue it in place and just suck air anytime you need the syphon started...the valve was at my lfs for like $2

hope that helps

[ejaustin]

Thanks to everyone for your help and suggestions. I now have a sump plumbed to my tank to, well, do all the good stuff that sumps do.

After I followed Robert's instructions on getting the J tubes of the overflow box working (okay, after following them *several* times), I cut the power. The water level in the sump rose very quickly, and then stopped a good 2 inches below the top of the sump. When I turned the power back on, everything resumed operation, because the J tubes in the overflow box kept their water.

I don't know what the actual gph is, but it seems to be at a sustainable flow, meaning that there's a consistent water level 1) in the overflow box inside the tank (about 1" deep); 2) in the overflow box outside the tank; 3) in the intake side of the sump; 4) in the outflow side of the pump, and 5) in the tank itself. It's not pretty and looks amateurish, but it works, by golly!

My only worry is what if the overflow stops working for some reason: the overflow drains get clogged or the J tubes *do* lose their water during a power outage. There are a pair of each of them, presumably to make it less likely that something will go wrong with both channels at the same time. Still, "luck favors the prepared", as E says in The Incredibles. I don't think there's anything to keep the return pump from pumping water until the water level in the sump is below the intake of the pump.

Right now, the overflow box inside the tank is pretty high. I'm thinking if I made it a little lower, it would allow the tank to contain the consequences of no-drainage (whatever the cause) better. (The surface area of the tank is probably about 2x the surface area of the sump, so lowering the level in the tank an inch would allow it to contain 2 inches of sump water, more or less.)

And/or I could raise the pump in the sump so that its intake is only an inch or two below the waterline, so it would run dry more quickly if something happened to the overflow drainage. I think I'd rather lose a pump than have gallons of water spilling out the top of the tank (and probably burning up the pump anyway), in the event of a disaster.

What do y'all think?

I know this thread just goes on and on. I appreciate your patience.

ej

[hammondegge]

glad you got it going EJ. all of your considerations are sound. i like the 'luck favors the prepared' quote.

i believe the best cautionary plan would be a combination of setting the overflow box low enough to accomodate the volume of water in the return side of the sump and a float switch placed to shut off the pump when the water gets too low. IME the mag pumps do not fail or seize and burn up when half submerged and sputtering for as many as a few hours but 'luck favors the prepared'.

[hobogato]

another thing you can do is use a UPS (battery backup power supply) for your return pump. that way, if power goes out, your return pump will continue to run for a few hours (depending on pump and UPS size) so you dont have to worry as much about your overflow losing a siphon.

[ejaustin]

Well, I ran up to Austin Aquariums to try to find the thingie dieselndixie mentioned. I was talking to Mimi (I think her name is Mimi, anyway... she's helped me several times and I asked her name, but I could have it totally wrong) about it. Michael popped out of the back room and he said, "You're talking about an overflow?" I said, "Yes." He said, "Just get some of that flexible green tubing and attach it to a powerhead. It will suck the air out and if there's a power outage, it will restart the siphon when the power comes back on." blob7.gif I told him, "You're so smart! They oughta promote you!"

Anyway, the OD on that tubing is a tad too small for the air inlet on my powerhead, but it still works. I'm going to take the tubing that came with the powerhead over to Home Depot and see if I can find a T to fit it so I can have both J tubes serviced by the same powerhead.

Robert, that float switch idea sounds good, but let me see if I understand how it would work. I would want a float switch that's normally closed (so the electrical circuit is complete) and that opens (breaks the current, right?) if the water level gets high enough to activate it. Then I would place it so the switch is above the normal water level but below the panic level in the tank. Is that right? Then there would have to be some kind of wiring so that the pump turns off if the float switch is open. I'm not sure what that would look like...

ej

[GKarshens]

You understand the float switch correctly. You just mount it upside down from normal. That way when the water rises it breaks the circuit and shuts off the pump. Top-Off is one of our sponsers. I ordered their basic kit an I am very happy with it. It comes fully put together so all you have to do is mount it at the height you want and plug it in. Then you plug your pump into the power cord coming from the float switch and you are done.

[hammondegge]

what gabe said.

something like this

http://www.marinedepot.com/md_searchitem.a...&itemsonpage=15

[Dhayden]

I know its not the right place to ask. But do any of you have a a picture of the Topoff.com installed? I know in a sump its easy. I want to see what it looks like in a tank. I just looks kinda big.

[GKarshens]

Sorry. Mine is in my sump.

[rohnds]

A great discussion. The question of what happened in overflow box with a wet/dry trickle filter is one of the most misunderstood process in our hobby. My fiend that suggested this site to me looked at my tank and suggested that I put powerhead to suck the air out of the siphon to reduce siphon water power loss. This simply isn?t necessary if you have the setup correctly.

Take a look at the diagram below. If you overflow box is anything like this (mine is). You will see that during a power failure the siphon will not break. Let me explain.

As you can see the outer overflow box is in fact divided into 2 section. The outlet for water into your sump in on your left and the siphon tubes are placed on the right (section without an outlet). This important since it is that side that retain water during power failures (since it has no outlet). During normal process, the water level in the inner overflow box is slightly higher than the water level in the outer overflow box, or else the water will not flow from inner to outer overflow box. This works simply due to the pressure exerted on the bottom on the water column in your inner box is great than the pressure exerted on the outer overflow box and thus water will flow from inner to outer.

During a power loss. Your pump in the sump will stop working and water will no longer flow from the sump to the tank. But the siphon between the overflow boxes will still work. Eventually the water level in your tank will drop below the small teeth (opening) or inlets, the water from the tank will no longer flow from the tank into the inner overflow box. But this still would stop the water from flowing from the overflow box to sump until the water level in the inner overflow box and outer overflow box becomes even (leveled). When this happened the pressure exerted by the 2 water columns are equal and thus water will stop flowing.

If you siphon tube on either sides are bellow this so called critical level, the siphon is maintained, ready for water to flow when the power comes back up. The critical thing here is how far the ends of the siphon tubes reaches on either sides. How do you decide that. Simple. Look at the top of the divider that separate the outer overflow box. During normal operations, the water level in the inner overflow box is slightly higher than that. So the end of the siphon tube in the inner overflow box must reach below the top of this divider, which I call the critical level. If the siphon tube in the inner overflow box doesn?t reach that far below (critical level), the siphon will easily be broken when air get in the tube when the water level reaches the critical level.

As you can see there is really no need to place powerhead attached to the siphon to restart the siphon after a power failure.

Rohn

Edited: Forgive me for any spelling error and syntax error as I am pressed for time when I wrote this.

[rohnds]

Another point that I didn?t address in the reverse siphoning from the tank to the sump via the PVC/line that draw from the sump to the tank. To preventing this so simple.

You could either make sure that the end of the pipe is always above the water level. If this is making too much noising as water splashes, simply drill a hole (I used a 1/8 drill bit) just at or bellow the water level and extend the end of the PVC/line well below the water line.

This hole will suck in air and during a power failure (when the water level falls below this hole) and stop the reverse siphoning.

I am sure that many knows of this but I thought I mention this just incase someone is reading that doesn?t know this little trick.

Rohn