Family of Clowns

[subsea]

Anthony Calfo, wrote an article about the social structure of clowfish behavior. There is only one "Super Female" in the tribe. The alpha male is the dominant male of the school with the rest of the school being imature males. In the event of the Queen dying, the Alpha Male morphs into a Queen. I am sure that are the woman rights people out there can see the wisdom of the Clowfish social structure.

Last night, I released five juvenile aquacultured Ocelaries Clowns into my established display tank. Previous in this tank was a lone aquacultured Ocelarius Clown from C-Quest and a large anemone that had grown from marshmellow size to volley ball size. It was so neat to watch the large Clown encourage these baby fish into the forest of anemone tentacles. I had just installed underwater red LED lights for a spectaculr view of the maternal instincts of a Queen Clownfish. At one point, a Coral Banded Shrimp stalked the baby fish waiting in ambush until the Queen chased it away. It is really neat to watch some of this reef stuff at night.

Patrick

[deangelr]

The area in our fish tanks is generally much too small for the social structure we see in the wild to play out naturally..

The number of dominant females in any given group is determined by the size of the anemone colonies.. There can be one or several females in a group

I actually just read this paper a few days ago explaining the structure. It is very informative.

http://www.wdc-jp.biz/pdf_store/isj/publication/pdf/20/202/20205.pdf

So although it is true, clownfish are not monogamous, For the most part in our tanks they are.

[deangelr]

I normally don't trust a word calfo says.. Full of bombastic claims.. Do you have a link to his article?

[+C Lo Slice]

What size tank did you put them in? Funny you should mention the Coral Banded Shrimp - my cousin just lost his clown pair to his Coral Banded. You could actually see the shrimp's insides turn orange

[subsea]

I normally don't trust a word calfo says.. Full of bombastic claims.. Do you have a link to his article?

It was a chapter in a book that he wrote. When I went to my hobby liabrary, the book is no longer with me. I'll do some research on it. You may want to look at the link that was provided in a post on this thread.

[subsea]

http://www.austinreefclub.com/topic/20277-natural-nitrate-reduction/

Caleb, the clowns went into my 75G display tank. Jake took some pictures of the tank and they are posted on the thread Natural Nitrate Reduction.

Banzai,

Patrick

[subsea]

I normally don't trust a word calfo says.. Full of bombastic claims.. Do you have a link to his article?

This is a bold statement from someone without credentials to criticize. Anthony Calfo has written more than a few books and has been an expert in captive reef husbandry for 20 years. I have known Anthony for ten years and he is my friend, I will not let someone trash his name without a statement in his defense. Bombastic as defined by Webster: pompous and overblown. Anthony may be loud and enthusiastic about his subject matter. Why is that bad? It is not so much that I care what you think but I do care for my friend. I also care that people who are reading this thread not form an opinion from unsubstantiated gossip.

Patrick Castille

[deangelr]

I apologize for the offense.. not my intention.. I am sure calfo is a fine guy.. I am well familiar with his work and publications. I do not agree with some of his practices (If you want to discuss the particulars feel free to contact me).

I wouldn't call my opinion unsubstantiated.. It is based in experience, scientific literature, and my own inferences. I have been in this game for some time myself and have made a career out of this obsession just like a lot of others.. I didn't know I needed credentials to criticize since this is an open forum.. There are people out there cutting up carpet anemones because calfo says any anemone can be split and propagated... Not a good idea.

In my opinion, putting 5 clownfish in a 75g tank is more of an experiment than any sound reefing that should be encouraged. I was curious about the literature so I could understand better.. Not on here to tell anyone what they should or shouldn't do in their reefing..

Edited January 9, 2012 by deangelr

[subsea]

The book on Clown Fish social structure was co-written with Robert Fenner and is titled "Reef Invertebrates".

With respect to the comment about Calfo advising people to cut up Carpet Anemones. This is pure fiction. I am looking at his "Anemone and Clownfish Guide Chart". It specifically says that Carpet Anemones are unsuited for reef tanks. The only two anemones recommended for aquaculture: Emacmaea quadricolar (Buble Tip Anemone) and Heteractis crispa (Sebae Anemone). For people that farm coral, these are standard recommended practices.

With respect to me having too many clowfish in my 75G tank for standard reef practice, that is your opinion. I did not suggest that anyone do it. I only said it was neat to watch the larger clown encourage the juvenile fish into the anemone.

It is obvious to me that you and I communicate differently. I say "Viva La Difference".

[deangelr]

With respect to the comment about Calfo advising people to cut up Carpet Anemones. This is pure fiction.

It is obvious to me that you and I communicate differently. I say "Viva La Difference".

Not fiction... the proof is in the pudding right? here is a thread where cutting carpets is encouraged by calfo.. There are several others that either directly encourage cutting carpets or hint at it, as well as MACAN talks etc.. I can find them if I need to... check it out: http://forum.marined...47471-13-1.aspx, http://blogs.frags.o...og.php?bid=92..

Even so the success rate of cutting quadricolor and magnifica are incredibly low.. Put at 20% by Dr. Daphne Fautin.. So cutting these should definitely not be any sort of standard procedure , at least IMO.. It might work for quadricolor for a select experience reefers with dedicated systems and that is it..

There are several more threads where calfo encourages irresponsible practices (other than carpet anemones.. That was just my example).. not just this one circumstance. I have no intention to turn this into any type of public bashing... Just want to share so you can see that I didn't make my claims up out of thin air. I am being forced to defend my own credibility at this point and that is why I am sharing... Again, not to put anyone down.

Agreed.. "Viva La Difference"

Edited January 9, 2012 by deangelr

[subsea]

The area in our fish tanks is generally much too small for the social structure we see in the wild to play out naturally..

The number of dominant females in any given group is determined by the size of the anemone colonies.. There can be one or several females in a group

I actually just read this paper a few days ago explaining the structure. It is very informative.

http://www.wdc-jp.bi...0/202/20205.pdf

So although it is true, clownfish are not monogamous, For the most part in our tanks they are.

I read the introduction to the research paper with the qualifications to the observation of data. This Japanese research paper was written in 1973. The groundwork laid here was extraordinary for the crudeness of the information gathering process: two diver observers stationed 6' from the colony. With humans, as big as sharks, six feet from the colony how can normal social activity be expected. I agree with you that the article is very detailed and interesting.

[subsea]

With respect to the comment about Calfo advising people to cut up Carpet Anemones. This is pure fiction.

It is obvious to me that you and I communicate differently. I say "Viva La Difference".

Not fiction... the proof is in the pudding right? here is a thread where cutting carpets is encouraged by calfo.. There are several others that either directly encourage cutting carpets or hint at it, as well as MACAN talks etc.. I can find them if I need to... check it out: http://forum.marined...47471-13-1.aspx, http://blogs.frags.o...og.php?bid=92..

Even so the success rate of cutting quadricolor and magnifica are incredibly low.. Put at 20% by Dr. Daphne Fautin.. So cutting these should definitely not be any sort of standard procedure , at least IMO.. It might work for quadricolor for a select experience reefers with dedicated systems and that is it..

There are several more threads where calfo encourages irresponsible practices (other than carpet anemones.. That was just my example).. not just this one circumstance. I have no intention to turn this into any type of public bashing... Just want to share so you can see that I didn't make my claims up out of thin air. I am being forced to defend my own credibility at this point and that is why I am sharing... Again, not to put anyone down.

Agreed.. "Viva La Difference"

In an effort to educate myself, I went to the links that you provided.

The first link was Marine Depot Forumn, on Reef Husbandry moderated by Anthony Calf a few years back. He respondes to a question about Carpet Anempnes in the trade: They should not be collected for casual reef tank use. Only expert should consider keeping this anemone in captivity. He also brought up the ethics of "Responsible Reefkeepng".

I see no problem with his statements.

The second link was to a clearing house of differen blogs. I was not interested in pursuing your trail of rabbits any longer.

I have no doubt, that you have an issue with Anthony Calfo. Take it up with him at [email protected]. He will address your questions. He called you a "chai" (I am not sure what it is.) when I mentioned the incident.

[deangelr]

Seriously.. trail of rabbits? LOL..

From links: Calfo says,

if you must use a carpet species, please select haddoni and propagate it after it is established.

Another:

You'll see carpet propagation there... including haddoni (most carpets in the trade are S. haddoni)

Please note that if you make the newbie farmer mistake of propagating it in your display (all coral/anemone propagation really should be done outside of display tanks unless the display is monospecific)... you may well kill every living fish in your tank (see the threads int he link my friend)

Please share pics if you proceed with the propagation.

Anthony

Another from calfo:

As for the anemones... I have successfully propagated all on the list you have here save for the pizza anemone and mertensii (never owned either... but suspect they are as good candidates as all others).

Here is the list he refers to....

. Cryptodendrum adhaesivum (adhesive or pizza)

b. Entacmaea quadricolor (bulb-tentacle, BTA, or corn): This one for sure as shown by you.

c. Heteractis aurora (beaded or sand)

d. Heteractis crispa (long tentacle, LTA, leathery, or milk)

e. Heteractis magnifica (magnificent, ritteri, or skunk): This one you recommended not to keep in aquarium, so I guess not.

f. Heteractis malu (sebae, delicate, or sand)

g. Macrodactyla doreensis (long tentacle, LTA, or corkscrew tentacle)

h. Stichodactyla gigantea (gigantic or carpet)

i. Stichodactyla haddoni (haddon's, saddleback, carpet, or sand carpet)

j. Stichodactyla mertensii (merten's, or spotted-base carpet)

As you can see.. Calfo claims he has successfully propagated gigantea, and haddoni.. I would love to see proof of this.. It would be great for the hobby, but I am afraid of claims like this.. I call them bombastic. And from someone so influential in the hobby this is really dangerous IMO..

I do not appreciate you attacking my character as if I have something against calfo or am out to attack your character.. As I said earlier.. I did not make up my claims... They are certainly not unsubstantiated.. I hope my quotes can help you understand that I am not trying to create rabbit trails.. I am only bringing these up so others reading take me as a clown.. (no pun )

Honestly if I had known you were a friend of calfo I would not have made that original statement.. I apologize.. I just disagree with a lot of what he has to say about the hobby. I have boughten his books, seen lectures, IMO its a waste of time and money... Does that make me an evil little troll?> Clearly in your eyes it does..

As you said earlier.. "Viva la difference" This has gone on longer than I needed it to and dont care to continue it..

-Ross

Edited January 9, 2012 by deangelr

[subsea]

You have assumed a lot about my thoughts of you. I do not see you as an evil troll. That is not why I took issue with your statement. It is not merely that Anthony and I are aquainted.

I am sensitive to peoples right to defend themselves, especially when they do not know about it. I have no doubt that Anthony experimented with many techniques to coral farm. Without pioneer efforts we never get passed "the standard". Without knowing the details of the audiance being addressed (expert or want to be farmers) in the links, I try not to infur things out of context. I agree, the discussion has gone on long enough about "responsible criticism".

[Timfish]

The area in our fish tanks is generally much too small for the social structure we see in the wild to play out naturally..

The number of dominant females in any given group is determined by the size of the anemone colonies.. There can be one or several females in a group

I actually just read this paper a few days ago explaining the structure. It is very informative.

http://www.wdc-jp.bi...0/202/20205.pdf

So although it is true, clownfish are not monogamous, For the most part in our tanks they are.

de Angelr, thank for posting the link! It was a interesting article on how clownfish behavior is influenced by the available resources. For the record A. xanthurus is now A. clarkii or Clark's clownfish. It would be interesting if this behavior of females sharing males or rather females and males having separate territories is documented in the other species (I did a quick search but didn't find anything). It seems reasonable to assume so but considering the disparity in the geographic distribution of the different species research may show it is a survival trait of only the species that have broad geographic distributions. (A. clarkii is has the widest distribution while some species are only known from only one island.)

[Timfish]

. . . http://forum.marined...47471-13-1.aspx, http://blogs.frags.o...og.php?bid=92

Even so the success rate of cutting quadricolor and magnifica are incredibly low.. Put at 20% by Dr. Daphne Fautin.. So cutting these should definitely not be any sort of standard procedure , at least IMO.. It might work for quadricolor for a select experience reefers with dedicated systems and that is it . . .

de Angler, do you have the reference for Dr. Fautin's research? I'm curious to see how old it is and if she distinguishes between species, I would expect very different success rates. Also, your 2nd reference just lists to a home page and I couldn't find a reference to anemonies using the search function do you have a more specific link for your reference?.

I've only read through 11 or 12 of the threads the index of threads your first reference links to but from what I read several people were offering "how to" advice were Calfo spent most of his effort either advising not to cut or the issues with cutting that need to be dealt with to reduce problems. He even emphasized if propagating by cutting was going to be done only a single clone line should be maintained in a tank, different clone lines from the same species should be not be housed together. It seems to me he's agreeing with you, it should not be standard procedure and should only be done by experienced reefers with a dedicated system.