Zeovit and carbon sources.

[Hamp]

Well I am still trying to wrap my head around this, and learn about some of the products and how to use them. I have seen some amazing tanks lately with beautiful colors and amazing water clarity, and am sold. If someone has some info and experience using Zeovit and polyplab as well as otherl products, I would love to read about it. Hopefully it will help a lot of people out.

[Hamp]

I also have a 29 gal tank and not interested in setting up a reactor, so specific info on nanos will help me out. But please respond with all experiences, and results.

[+mcallahan]

I'm running the polyp lab system. Here is an overview of my thoughts on it:

1. Its very simple - 4 different elements that include a carbon source, bacteria, amino acids, coral food. There is no reactors that you need to buy like with other systems.

2. Easy to use. There are instructions for everyday dosing (which I do) and 1x a week dosing. Bruce @ Aquatek uses it on show tank and he says he doses every 3 days, so you can setup your own dosing schedule.

3. Idiot proof. The instructions say that even if you screw up and double dose, it won't hurt your tank.

4. Coral growth is killer. Even slow growing SPS like my Oregon tort grow fast.

6. After 3 weeks, I had 0 nitrates, 0 phosphates. Just make sure you have a good functional skimmer.

7. It is supposed to help with coral color, and I haven't seen that. Let me say tho that until the past month, I was moving corals around a lot, which isn't a good idea. Things are starting to color up more, but I have not been able to get the color that Bruce has in his show tank.

8. I chose it over Zeovit due to simplicity. I tried to figure out which Zeovit package to buy and it seemed that if you were going to buy a 4 bottle system, then it was recommended that you buy the 5 bottle system. And if you wanted the 5 bottle system, then it'd really be good if you bought the additional 3 bottles to REALLY have a complete system, etc, etc.

I am going to start adding some Zeovit amino acids as I've heard amazing things about Zeovit's amino acids and coral growth.

Overall I think its worth the cost due to safety (idiot proof), simplicity and the results that people have been getting.

[Mike M.]

I ran two courses of PolypLab and it did some good. My tank has eight year old legacy live rock in it and apparently, as I began tracking PO4 with a Hanna meter, it was loaded with bound phosphate. I just wasn't getting the PO4 down with the PolypLab to near zero. In January, I made the full zeovit conversion. I have posted the trials and tribulations of that conversion on the zeovit board and will update it in 4-6 week intervals over the next 6-12months. I am impressed so far with what has happened, but am still battling the phosphate issue as you will see in the last posts on the zeo string. Here it is and with three months under my belt, I can recommend it for SPS keepers.

Mike's Austin Zeovit String

Concerning numbers of bottles...I am currently dosing:

Start2

ZeoBak

Sponge Power (laughable name for sure)

Coral Vitalizer

Food 7

The dosing schedule is more confusing and use of the resource at the zeovit board has been very, very helpful. I use the calendar software on my Mac to keep up with what to put in what days and the prescription changes from week to week. Intimidating at first, but once you get going, it all gels and makes sense. If you are considering this protocol, read the dosing guide and use the zeovit board to get help with how to setup and run your system. Once up, it is not more of a hassle than PolypLab IMO. I also feel and I think you'll agree if you browse both strings that the growth and color results after three months of zeo are better than what I got with Polyp Lab.

Edited March 28, 2010 by Mike M.

[Mike M.]

I also ran a Polyp Lab string on Reef Central in 2008/early 2009. It had interesting results also. You might want to read through it and look at the pictures:

Polyp Lab on Reef Central

[Rjohn]

So what is the approximate monthly bill for these products?

[+mcallahan]

So what is the approximate monthly bill for these products?

The polyp lab cost me $175 and lasted for 8 months on my 100G tank so $21.88 ish.a

[Hamp]

Thanks Mark and Mike. How did the treatments effect your LPS? And also, did you have high nitrates before you started, and if so, did they spike during the beginning phases of dosing?

[Mike M.]

RJohn,

I don't know about cost per month. Since January, I have only had to purchase another bottle of ZeoBak which is not terribly expensive relative to some other products. Zeovit is probably more expensive and if cost is a concern, a DIY protocol such as VSV or the Microbacter and vodka approaches may be the way one should go. That being said, if you look at my Zeovit thread, you'll see some pretty incredible improvement in just 6 weeks. The thing about the zeo method is that it is comprehensive. Everything from volume of water changes to water parameters such as kH are outlined for the approach. I like this aspect of it as it takes a lot of the thinking out of the husbandry for me.

As far as LPS, I do believe the bleed down process of getting phosphates and nitrates under control is extremely hard on some LPS. I lost a cyanaria in the third week of startup and I have another type of brain that is struggling. Look through the zeo thread I cited above to see the impact. That being said, I committed my tank to SPS well being and if I loose some of the LPS along the way, so be it. Others on the zeo board say that LPS do fine and that may be the case once you have the PO4 situation under control. I just measured my PO4 tonight as part of my weekly testing and I am down from .07 last week to .05. I am going to keep hammering the tank with the ZeoBak and Start 2 until the PO4 level is sub .03. The brain may not make it, but my SPS are looking so fine for the first time and I have brown corals that are starting to shed the brown and let their colors show. This is a very satisfying development for my tank and I was not able to achieve this with PolypLab.

Remember, I am working to get an eight year old saltwater tank under control. It had a deep sand bed until September of last year that held TONS of junk that had steeped the live rock in who knows how much undesirable stuff for many, many years. Polyp Lab, VSV, Microbacter just didn't do it for me. A younger tank or one without the buildup of crud that my tank had may in fact do fabulously with the other methods I have mentioned.

So let me be clear, I am in no way saying that zeovit is superior. It has, however, proven to work for my system where less complicated or even perceivably less expensive methods failed to produce in the past.

To run zeo, you need some form of reactor. I purchased the Vertex reactor. Another huge expense if one is to look at setup and operating cost. Another aspect is the 4-6 week change of zeo stones at like $17 a bag. Since I am hammering about $50 a month in electricity for the chiller, lights,and pumps, I figure, what the heck. Throw another $30-40 per month in supplement cost. Its a hobby that I enjoy and worth it.

My wife said to me when I started thinking about converting...hey, why don't you just get that new tank you want, get new live rock and chuck this phosphate steeped sh-t into the dump and get on with our reef life. Well, honestly, I wanted to see if I could win against this adversary and so far, I do believe I am gonna make it. Advisers from the zeo board indicate that some old legacy tanks have tanken up to 12 months to come under control, so three down, nine to go is what I am thinking. Then, I can buy that cool 180 gallon custom tank, set it up, and know exactly how to operate it and succeed with the SPS that have proven to be a little tough for my old system.

I have read where some have used bits or pieces of the zeo protocol to enhance their tanks and I think there is nothing wrong with that approach, but I have also seen posts on the zeo board of such folks having difficulty taking this route. I do know that the support offered through the moderators there is proving to be essential in helping learn to read what is going on in the tank through oberseravation and through testing. This is where I think the folks at KZ have a leg up on the others. If you are interested in the Microbacter and Vodka approach, you can read through tons of posts in Sonny's Rimless on Reef Central as he has kinda become the poster child for this method, but I don't believe he serves as a helping hand the way Bob and the other fella on the zeo board do.

So all in all, I'll give the zeo approach a thumbs up at month three as compared to other methods I have tried in the past. Polyp Lab seemed to work okay and certainly better than running without, but it didn't have the horse power or support that I have found with the zeo protocol.

[Hamp]

Thanks Mike.

[+mcallahan]

I have to echo the LPS concern. Open brains don't do well in my tank I think its the ultra clean water that isn't helping them.

My acans are fine and growing, but an open brain I got isn't fading away slowly. I'm not hand feeding it to help it, and it came to me damaged, but it certainly isn't improving. I've also lost a hammer coral and an acan colony as well.

[+mcallahan]

One thing to keep in mind is that colorization can be highly variable from tank to tank due to lighting differences as well as water parameter factors. So if that nice piece of coral doesn't look so hot in your tank, it might be due to lighting as well.

[Hamp]

I am more interested in getting nitrates and phosphates lower, but definitely am interested in water clarity and coral growth/color. I ordered 2 products from Zeovit to try out. The Zeofood and Zeobak to try out. I may also order the nanopack which has aminos for LPS and one for sponges and clams. I am interested to see the results.

[fishypets]

I don't think our clean water affects LPS like you guys are thining. The Aussie reefs where some of the nice LPS are found typically have PO4 levels of .000001 A far cry away from where we run our PO4.

Just my .02

[+mcallahan]

I don't think our clean water affects LPS like you guys are thining. The Aussie reefs where some of the nice LPS are found typically have PO4 levels of .000001 A far cry away from where we run our PO4.

Just my .02

a good point, but in the wild corals are out of the water for several hours a day in some places and survive. If you tried that @ home in your tank, they wouldn't make it.

So saying that b/c things are different in the wild (lower P04) doesn't equate to things working out in our tanks. Gabe and I had a nice discussion about this once, perhaps he will chime in if he's around.

[+mcallahan]

I am more interested in getting nitrates and phosphates lower, but definitely am interested in water clarity and coral growth/color. I ordered 2 products from Zeovit to try out. The Zeofood and Zeobak to try out. I may also order the nanopack which has aminos for LPS and one for sponges and clams. I am interested to see the results.

The polyp lab system dropped my nitrates from 3 to 0 in about 3 weeks. Phosphates became undetectable.

I also have the Zeo nanopack coming in today to see what kind of results I get.

[fishypets]

thining.

I meant to say thinking.

[Hamp]

Are you doing the zeovit system Clint? Gabriel mentioned that I should ask you about it.

[fishypets]

I am running full ZEOvit. Overall I'm happy with the results but I've made a few mistakes. The best advice I could give you is print out the ZEOvit guide and read the material front to back at least three times. Start out with the basic four and take it slow. It's not as expensive as everyone thinks, especially since the products are very concentrated compared to probido, brightwell, fauna marin, etc.

You should become a member of the ZEOvit forum and start asking questions. One of the most helpful forums I've been a part of. Good luck!

[Hamp]

Thanks, I have been scanning the forum; looks like a very useful source of info.

[Hamp]

Would you mind commenting on some of your mistakes?

[GKarshens]

While this is slightly off topic, I think I remember the conversation Marc and I had. I think we were discussing how viable it is for us to try to mimic the ocean. While in many ways I try to keep mine as natural as possible, it is virtually impossible to have an exact representation. Anthony Calfo is a big proponent of region specific stocking. He has talked at length about how much harder it is to keep species from different regions together as they have different needs. Most of us though want the coolest stuff from all over, and try our best to sustain them. I have never looked into Zeovit or any of the other systems as I have a pretty limited budget when it comes to reef keeping. So I try to stay as natural as possible. When I am diligent about it (which is not often since we got the kids) I do regular large water changes and make sure my skimmer stays clean to be as effective as possible. I measure my CA and KH to make sure it is stable and at proper rates and that is about it. When I am diligent I have had good success. When I have let things slide I have had issues. While there are many different ways to keep a successful reef, I feel the key is consistency and stability. When we get lax no matter what system we are running we usually pay for it.

[fishypets]

I used Brightwell stones instead of KZ stones one exchange and three days later all my corals both sps and lps had lost all color. Everything went from a bright vibrant color to a very dull brown. That was a few months ago and my tank is just now starting to color up again. That was the most recent and the biggest mistake I've made thus far. All in all it's a great system but does require daily attention which I don't mind.

[Hamp]

Anyone with experience with the microbacter? (Brooks perhaps?) I would like to hear some experiences with that as well.

[Mike M.]

I used two bottles of Microbacter and the Polyp Lab carbon source in an interim period. I was researching zeo at the time and wanted to continue hammering down on the phosphates...to little avail. I started zeo after two bottles of dosing with Microbacter and began with .15mg/L of PO4. It was not a successful approach for my nutrient load. Younger tanks will likely perform differently due to less bound phosphate. Sonny's Rimless thread on Reef Central is a good source of info from users that are successful with the Microbacter approach.

Mike