chippwalters

Wow. Changed a lot since I last viewed. For the better! See ya Sat.

does printing threads on the top significantly increase costs, or affect the function? seems like you could just have the top thread onto the bottle and throw away the cap.

The original Gatorade (and other container) caps are specially designed to be waterproof and airproof. They even have a built in sealing ring. It would take a lot of work to try and design as good a tight fitting cap as what they already have. Not saying it's not possible, but it's just much easier to engineer the thread and nut together as I've done on this design. My guess it would take at least half a dozen trys * 2hrs each print cylcle...

If you really want to capture the nano market - make sure it'll fit into the back chamber of the biocubes/nanocubes. It's been awhile since I had a biocube but it seems to me like the back chamber wouldn't have been wide enough for a Gatorade bottle.

Actually, there are a number of decent all-in-one reactors for the biocube maket. They all have extremely high outlets and don't work in small sized sumps. I've even purchased one and tried and had to return it because the size just doesn't fit a standard sump.

This may be a completely rediculous question on my part, but are Gatorade bottles BPA free and is that a concern for a sw aquarium? Aside from that, when determining a price you'll have to consider the cost of the bottle of Gatorade as well. I can see this as a built to order product with a display model at each of the area LFS in and around Austin. You can always give one to each store to use so people can see it in action. Like Just a Guy mentions above, this may really fill a nitch market for nano owners. It's not unreasonable to ship an extra bottle with each order and build the cost of two Gatorades into each order. Since your building them to order, you can always change the code to match the bottle if Gatorade ever changes their bottle design. You may find yourself selling these all over Texas and on eBay before oyu know it! Maybe your own eBay store for special order items. Not unreasonable to think it.

Don't know about BPA free, but I've been using it in my smallish sump (20 gallon but 10 gallon of sw) and DT (8 gal) since last weekend and have seen no issues yet. In fact the water is clearer than ever and I have zero algae right now.

I tend to agree it should be a complete unit sale as the bottom must be routed out and a hole drilled in the cap, not something easy for everyone, just DIYers. Not sure how much it would fetch complete with manual and tips for use. Any ideas?

Well speaking of Ebay, why not purchase clear tubing from one of the ebay sellers? Sometimes they have remnants that are really cheap and incorporate it in the cost of the unit. For me, the design is and size is perfect because i don't have a lot of room in my tank. I have always wanted to use purigen but couldn't find anything small enough for it,...... well reasonably priced. Just food for thought......

I assume you mean clear acrylic tubing? Yes, that's an idea, but I have to say the Gatorade bottle has such a great design for this. The bottom 'snaps' on, and the bracket clips on perfectly as well. With tubing, there's much more assembly required and more 3D prints (see my previous 3D thread on what that looks like).

The other option would be to build it to go with something standard but a little tougher, like maybe a Nalgene bottle? Those are pretty much commodity items now and easily replaceable.

Cool bottle, but doesn't have the right 'undercuts' to be able to snap a bottom and clip on. That's the beauty of the Gatorade bottle!

Seems to me if the consumer supplies the bottle it saves labor and inventory and it looks like it could then be shipped in an envelope also, a bottle would need to be boxed.

As I mentioned above, not everyone wants a DIY kit, and adding the bottle is only a little more...

I would assume when you purchase one the Gatorade bottle comes with it. If you need a back up then perhaps you spend a few bucks and buy a couple bottles of Gatorade and now you have two or three backups.

Though I suspect one bottle should last at least as long as my 2 little fishies did-- which was one year before the top cracked.

Great feedback and still much appreciated. I love those BRS reactors-- IMO, they're the best. Problem is, they are large, are typically mounted outside the sump, and really aren't spec'd for nanos. Your points are well made. I'm looking for a small and low maintenance mode reactor-- which is what the Gatorade device is. I'm not sure I've got the full picture of what works and doesn't, and that's why I'm beta testing it with several folks.

IMO, it seems like it's worth about $10 in plastic-- but the problem is it can't even be made for that. And, I can't find anything else which fits the bill as completely on the market.

you're welcome. i'm glad it may be helping. and, with the nano space, this may be well worth $20, or more, if it can fill a niche. even for me, with my other concerns .

and, like I said, the gatorade bottle may be completely irrational on my part. it may be worth considering building the bottle...errr printing...even if it jacks up the price a little. or, have a kit for the gatorade bottle at $20 and printed version that gets a better "feel" for $30 or even more. it seems that it should be able to be the same outer dimensions to work with the existing parts. the middle would just be a little smaller, but i don't think that would cause problems with how it works.

The only problem is the fact you can't 3D print clear plastic (PET) on these additive manufacturing 3D printers at this time.

I'm not sure why the bottle would fail, but I suppose for a couple of bucks, you can have backups! ;-)

1. Yes, it runs about 15 gallons in it.

2. I have the BRS Single reactor

3. 40 gallon display plus the sump.

4. I just run GAC

5. N/A

6. Understand how they work? I think so, but I've never really disected one. I do know they are better than a bag of media because the water is forced through them

To continue to be frank (and hopefully continued to be appreciated). The BRS reactor is thick and chunky. I could probably drop it down a flight of stairs and not worry about cracking it. It also runs about $35 plus shipping if applicable. For me personally, the extra $15 is worth it to me to get the thicker container.

From, what I can tell from yours, it has the advantage of being more compact so it may work better where space is more limited (which, may be your market). I probably should have thought more about it, I have not looked into reactors of a similar size where this may be required. BRS is also externally mounted. Yours also seems easier to clean/change media.

I also realize that my gatorade bottle deal is probably irrational. but, we are not always rational when we are buying stuff. i am giving you what i think would be my reaction if i just saw this in a store. i would be more apt to buy it from you as a forum guy, but it seems that you are thinking more broadly.

Great feedback and still much appreciated. I love those BRS reactors-- IMO, they're the best. Problem is, they are large, are typically mounted outside the sump, and really aren't spec'd for nanos. Your points are well made. I'm looking for a small and low maintenance mode reactor-- which is what the Gatorade device is. I'm not sure I've got the full picture of what works and doesn't, and that's why I'm beta testing it with several folks.

IMO, it seems like it's worth about $10 in plastic-- but the problem is it can't even be made for that. And, I can't find anything else which fits the bill as completely on the market.

What happens when Gatorade changes bottle design ?

I assume that's a real question and not snarky rhetoric. The answer is obvious. I go to my CAD program, modify the design, and print out new parts!

i don't want to sound rude, but i don't think i'd buy one for $20 with the gatorade bottle. if the bottle was better I'd be willing to pay more. the quality of the bottle probably makes little difference in the function, but if i were to walk into a store and see it i would not look closely at it for $20. $10 would make me take a good look, $15 maybe.

Let me ask you some further questions.

1. Do you have a sump?

2. Do you use a reactor? If so, which one?

3. What size tank do you have?

4. Do you use: Purigen, GFO, Activated Carbon, Chemi-Pure or Chemi-Pure elite, Phosban, Phosguard?

5. If you don't use a reactor, which one would you use?

6. Do you understand how reactors work and why they are so much better than just laying a bag of media in your tank?

The print file is matched to the type of printer. There's just not good enough tolerances to match a single print file to all printers, so I doubt they will work, but it's worth a try.

I don't think initials are that important for a sump reactor. I have someone else testing one right now and I'll get you one to test as well. Plus, one other tester, and I think my beta list is full. Plus, I'll bring one to ARC this weekend.

See you on Saturday!

I'll be there, too. I'll bring a DIY 3D printed reactor as a door prize. Look forward to seeing everyone.

http://3d-printers.toptenreviews.com/evolution-review.html

FWIW, Everyone wants something different from their 3-D printer. If you are a hobbyist and like to tinker with machines then perhaps one of the DIY models are better like Makerbot.

Makerbot also has a very active user community--Something which Cubify does not.

But if you're looking for a 3-D printer which is a sheer commodity device with few hassles in setting up and printing, it's hard to beat the Cubify solutions.

From my experience, they execute and rarely need any sort of maintenance or adjustments. Your mileage may vary.

what about using a venturi to keep the media tumbling? or some kind of air bubble injection?

I think I'll leave it as it is. It seems to be doing well, and there are certainly lots of other reactors which use basically the same design (see Tim's above!).

Now that I've tested the new flow regulator, it doesn't seem to make much of a difference. Even on the lowest setting, there doesn't seem to be much pressure inside. Don't know if it's the pump or something else.

I might go back to the original design and leave just one hole open...

Have you tried just using a valve on the inlet side, seems like the simplest solution

The inlet is not the issue. I'm trying to build pressure inside the device, but since the bottom is a 'snap on' I doubt it's possible.

maybe gravity is the problem? you are pushing the media down to the bottom, so it wants to sit there and not tumble whether there is flow or not. water up from the bottom pushes against gravity and prevents it from settling. maybe you can try turing it over and see if that works. unless i have it mounted backwards in my head.

Currently, the Purigen inside the Purigen bag IS tumbling nicely-- actually quite a bit. I think a single hole in the bottom (a design I'm printing now) will be the best solution-- and much simpler as it doesn't require the flow regulator. One of the nice things about a 3D printer is you can do a lot of "what if" types of tests.

It sits upright, just like in the picture.

Now that I've tested the new flow regulator, it doesn't seem to make much of a difference. Even on the lowest setting, there doesn't seem to be much pressure inside. Don't know if it's the pump or something else.

I might go back to the original design and leave just one hole open...

http://www.formz.com/products/formz/formzTrial.html

Yep, that was the idea. I don't think there is a 'precise' adjust mode like Tow Little Fishies where you continuously adjust the flow each day to keep media tumbling, as there is not a tumble mode when using bagged media. I was thinking the flow adjustment is primarily set for managing the throughput based on the pump. Some pumps also have integrated flow adjustments.

Here the new adjustable flow restriction bottom unit. It's a plate which sits in the bottom of the unit and can rotate to open and close the flow openings. It's attached with a plastic nut.

You can get the latest release of Bonzai 3D, which does just about everything you need except screw threads for $395, but the full FormZ package runs $995. Haven't yet heard of any 'renewal fees' though upgrading from the previous version is $295. Runs on both Mac and PCs.

So, if you get the latest Cube printer ($1299) and FormZ it will set you back around $2,300.

BTW, Some of the Staples are starting to sell the Cube printer:

http://www.staples.com/Cube-3D-Printers/product_SS2044291

What software do you use for the 3d modeling?

For anyone who's still hanging around, I've since switched to FormZ. It has a great automatated screw thread generator and is also a solid modeler (not a surface modeler like SketchUp) which makes things considerably easier.

This would also be a great co2 scrubber. Put an air line inlet in the top, soda lime in the bottle. Straight into your slimmer.

Interesting. I don't know much about co2 scrubbers other than they help regulate pH.

Can I pm you another design I have?

Sure.

I would like to be a BETA tester since I have never used a reactor.

Certainly. I've one to make ahead of yours.

To anyone who's interested, here's the print time to 3D print all the parts:

• Base: 3.25 hrs.
• Flow Restrictor Plate and Nut: 2 hrs. (optional)
• Nozzle Assembly: 2.5 hrs.
• Mounting Clip 2.5 hrs.

Total: 10.5 hrs.

Well, that is one work around. Plugging the tube with toilet paper. Didn't see THAT in the manual LOL.

I used Purigen and I once tried unscrewing the lid and all the media came tumbling out. This was because it's trapped at the top in the filter, and unscrewing the lid let anything on the lid side of the filter leak out with the water into the Sump. Also, seriously, many times I couldn't unscrew the cap without a vise and wrench. And, I was always very careful not to tighten it too much. Perhaps the Purigen worked it's way into the threads-- I dunno.

After some review, I think I need a better way to control flow out the bottom. I'm looking into some sort of spin control which can control the amount of time the media stays in contact with the water in the chamber.

Why do we need yet another New Reactor?

So, the question is 'why a new reactor?'

Well, sadly there are few small reactors available. I've been looking at them for some time, hoping someone will solve the myriad of UX (User Experience) issues when trying to use them. For those who don't know, a reactor is simply a chamber where water is forced through media. For many, it's 'good enough' to just lay a bag of activated carbon and/or GFO near the return pump. And having owned this Two Little Fishies Reactor, I've found there is value in actually forcing water through a media substrate-- even for my little tank.

But there are huge problems with this little reactor. The user workflow for changing out and cleaning this reactor is horrendous! First off, a couple of the original design premises were INCORRECT. For instance...

• Design the reactor so it could work out of the water and hang outside the sump. This reactor is set up to work both inside and outside. Well, I don't think that's such a great idea-- and from what I've read everyone says NOT to do this as you're just adding one more spill element and eventually it will fail and you will flood. And by the look of the rubber connectors, I have to agree. So, I always kept mine in the sump. I think this feature ended up dooming this particular device from the get go.

  This attention to making this reactor work OUTSIDE the sump has serious consequences for the design. One of the biggest is it forces both inlet and outlet out the top, and creates a not so great workflow for changing media. More on that later. Also, in my reactor, the media tended to 'clump' no matter what pressure settings I used. I tried it with both Phosguard and Purigen, and neither could 'bubble' more than a day or two before clumping. I did not try GFO, but I would assume a similar result. If you use this reactor for activated charcoal, then you DON'T want lots of movement in the charcoal as it will rub charcoal dust off and place it in the water column, which many say can be an irritant to corals and fish.

  FWIW, I know there are larger reactors which do work outside sumps-- and they are designed specifically for outside of the sump mounting and operation and seem to work just fine.

• Design the reactor for loose media. In fact every reactor I know of is designed for loose media, but I think that's problematic for small systems and this reactor. Here's why.

  First off, I've yet to see anyone successfully use Purigen loose in a reactor. Invariably the stuff ends up getting around a filter and spilling out into the sump and display tank, and once that happens you can forget about ever cleaning it up.

  Next, trying to pour media into this reactor is a major headache. You have to be careful not to pour it down the center tube and if you do, you need to pull it apart and start all over. Also, if the media gets 'below' the filter, then you have a major headache as it might just sit there and clump up and limit flow to only one side or the other.

  And cleaning this darn thing is pretty much impossible. Sometimes algae and gunk gets down low in the chamber, and because the bottom doesn't come off, you need extra long cleaning brushes, yet you still cannot get any pressure on the inside of the cylinder at the lower levels.

  Not to mention– what a MESS! Whatever substrate you have, goes everywhere as soon as you open it up as the water is right at the top of cylinder. Not an easy way to drain it because if you turn it over all the media flows out with the water. A huge dadgum mess indeed! And don't even think about trying to capture the media for 'recharging' (as in the case of Purigen). The mess is even compounded further as you try and filter out the gunk and the small beads of Purigen. Ewww.

  So, for me, the easier thing is to purchase a Seachem The Bag media filter bag and use it inside my Reactor design.

  

  This bag is great and can hold any type of media, incuding activated carbon, GFO, Phosban, Phosguard, etc.. I also now purchase Purigen in bag format and regenerate it for use over and over.

• Turn off the pump going to the Little Fishies reactor.
• Pull two rubber elbows off of lid while trying NOT to spill or break anything. Those **** elbows are HARD to remove and when you finally pull them off, stuff flies everywhere!
• Pull the entire reactor OUT of the sump and quickly transfer to a waiting bucket as it's full of water. If you have an ATO, now your sump will start filling up with fresh water and you'll rush over to turn it off while holding the reactor in your hand spilling everything.
• Try to empty the water out a bit in the bucket so you can handle the wretched thing.
• For some reason, more often than not, the lid is FUZED onto the reactor and cannot be unscrewed. Often I had to take it to the workshop and literally use a vise and wrenches to carefully 'unlock' it. Sheesh.
• Empty out all the contents into the bucket, knowing you're not going to save anything. Now you have a bucket full of water and used media...not sure what to do with that. I usually dump the whole mess around the back of my garage.
• Hose it down while outside because washing in a sink makes even more of a mess and I don't want all that media going into my septic system.
• And now the hard part. Separate all the parts and start cleaning. You need different cleaning tools for different parts. A long flexible brush can go down the center tube and.. if it's long enough just might clean stuff at the bottom. All the many different parts can be cleaned with a toothbrush except for the acrylic cylinder itself. The best you can do is spray inside it and shake it around. I've tried stuffing a towel into it, but it doesn't do much better.
• If you can remember which goes with which, assemble it back together.
• Carefully, CAREFULLY! poor new media into it making sure NONE OF IT goes into the center tube. If it does, pull it all out, clean it again, and start over. Ugh.
• Now, pray to God you can align the lid with the center tube which is now leaning to one side. Tilt it one way, then the other. If after 15 minutes it's not working, then remove all the media and 're-seat' the center tube. Then put the media back in and try again.
• If successful, put it back in the tank, plug in both rubber elbow joint thingys, turn on the pump and get busy trying to figure out how out of whack your salinity is with all the water removed.

Here's the expected new workflow with my new reactor:

• Turn off the pump.
• Unscrew the top from the bottle, leaving the hose and pump in the sump.
• Unclip the bottle and lift up. All the water will run out the bottom into the sump.
• Take to the sink, pop off the bottom and pull out the used bag.
• Clean the plastic container. It's open on the bottom and the top so it's super easy.
• Add a new 'bag-o-media' and snap the bottom back on.
• Place back in sump, screw on top and turn on pump.

I'm still tweaking this design and looking for feedback. The empty Gatorade bottle is great as it can easily be replaced if a different inside pressure is required. More on all that later.

As I said, I'd sure like feedback if anyone's interested. Also, I'll try and get Mike a few of these for our ARC members to try out. I'll continue with updates as I learn more.

This weekend I've been working on a small do-it-yourself reactor made from n empty Gatorade bottle.

I'm using my 3-D printer to create some of the parts.

Here are some work in progress pics.