JasonJones

Interesting question. I think part of the answer lies in that while they may be inefficient in removing TOCs, they also remove such things as bacteria and plankton. Turning them off at nights leaves these things in the water when the corals are more active feeding.

Another interesting and related bit of information from an article on bacteria count in aquariums relating to carbon dosing. http://www.advanceda...011/3/aafeature

"Conclusions

The preliminary studies described herein document, for the first time, the modulation of water column bacteria population in reef tank water as a consequence of either (a) carbon source addition or (b) mechanical filtration (GAC, skimming). This information bears on the Carbon Dosing hypothesis for nutrient removal in marine aquaria.

Aquaria subjected to active filtration via skimming present water column bacteria populations that are approximately 1/10 of those observed on natural reefs. The consequences of this disparity on the long-term health of the tank's livestock are not known. How do reef tank organisms adapt to such a bacteria-deficient environment? Is the whole food web in an aquarium perturbed, or are there compensatory mechanisms that maintain an appropriate energy transduction through all of the trophic levels? Is "old tank syndrome" related to possible nutritional deficiencies stemming from this bacteria "gap"? Alternatively, could "old tank syndrome" be symptomatic of a gradual decrease of bacterial diversity as a consequence of selective skimmer-based removal of only bubble-susceptible bacteria? At present, it is not possible to go beyond speculation on these points - further research is needed.

On the other hand, our studies have shown that bacterial growth appears to be carbon limited in reef aquarium water. However, there is a demonstrable difference between reef tank water in an active reef tank, and reef tank water removed from the tank. In the latter case, bacteria consumers are largely absent, and so fueling bacteria growth via carbon addition translates to rapid and large increases in bacteria population. In an active reef tank, however, this population increase is not manifest, presumably because active predation keeps the overall level in check. Thus, the highly dynamic nature of bacteria populations in the water column of reef aquaria is highlighted by these studies. From a different perspective, the bacteria population in a reef tank seems to act as a buffer to help dissipate the otherwise potentially serious negative consequences of (inadvertent?) tank pollution via rapid carbon addition, at least perhaps up to a saturation point.

Finally, mechanical filtration in the form of skimming but not GAC does provide an effective means of bacteria export, at least up to a point. It appears likely that some types of bacteria are indeed "skimmable", but others are not. Thus, skimming inadvertently provides severe (?) evolutionary pressure to skew the tank's resident water column bacteria population to favor the "non-skimmable" cohort.

The bottom line with respect to the carbon dosing hypothesis is clear; the basic tenets of this theory appear to hold up to experimental scrutiny; carbon dosing does increase water column bacteria populations, and skimming does remove some bacteria with their attendant nutrient loads. Thus, the underlying science behind this approach to nutrient export appears valid."

I feel like this thread needs to be updated with some information on the good effects of skimming...

All 250w DE bulbs should be the same size. Those bulbs look fine. You can check out PAR reading of 250w DE bulbs on Sanjay's site if you want to find one you think looks best.

http://www.manhattanreefs.com/lighting Click on the compare lamp tab and play away

It is a really nice piece, the pics dont do justice. When I was checking out his tank, I was drawn to this coral.

PBNJ is also Pat, confusing with multiples!

I agree, many methods work in this hobby when people understand their benefits and limitations. I have run several tanks over the years that were skimmerless and had very few water changes, but ran exceptionally well. An old 29g comes to mind that I loved.

I was hoping the original post would help people better understand the role and limitations of skimmers and manufacturers claims. Sometimes in this hobby it is easy to forget the science and instead focus on the current internet trends and manufacturers claims.

Main info taken from the link Pat posted:

"The skimmer takes out carbon (TOC) and bacteria. Both of these are food sources for corals and fish. Many skimmerless tanks have better polyp extension and growth rates. The problem is, these tanks can also have yellow water, turbidity (cloudiness) and nuisance algae problems. I have even had phytoplankton blooms (green water) in skimmerless reef tanks. Until we find a better way, a compromise between a natural and mechanical system is the safe route. Shutting the skimmer off half of the time is a good place to start. If conditions get better or worse, you know which direction to go; if they stay the same, it still confirms the limitation of protein skimming. Then you start to think if it was really worth it to upgrade your skimmer the last two times I don’t see a benefit in any schedule other than 12 hrs on, 12 hrs off."

Can you provide more info? Specifically, why you have chosen to adopt this methodology and what benefits you believe are derived from this approach.

The Mag 12 by itself would be inadequate. It is probably only pushing 600-700 gph once the head pressure is taken into account. I think the pumps you already have are more adequate and your setup sounds good.

The only benefit you will really get from adding a wavemaker is a little more random flow. I would only do it if your pumps are designed to be controlled. I know some K pumps are not designed to be turned on and off frequently and you will wear them out.

I just finished reading two interesting articles on protein skimming published in Advanced Aquarist in 2009 and 2010. I wanted to share those here and share some summaries for those who do not want to read through the entire articles, they are very long.

http://www.advanceda...09/1/aafeature2

http://www.advanceda...010/1/aafeature

Summary:

The studies focus on the removal of total organic compounds (TOC) in sea water.

The initial test uses four skimmer:

- Euro Reef CS80 Needlewheel

- Precision Marine ES100 Venturi

- Precision Marine AP264 airstone

- AETech ETSS Evolution 500 Downdraft

The second test compares 7 skimmers:

- Euro Reef CS80 Needlewheel

-Precision Marine ES100 Venturi

- Precision Marine AP264 airstone

- AETech ETSS Evolution 500 Downdraft

-Royal Exclusive 170 Cone

- Bubble King Mini 160

- Reef Octopus 150

Conclusions:

- No skimmer removes more than 35% of the TOC, "leading to the conclusion that bubbles are really not a very effective medium for organic nutrient removal" (may have other benefits, e.g. oxygenation).

- Price to Performance Chart (not sure how to embed the chart under our forum's rules)

http://www.advanceda...g/image_preview

- "Protein skimmers appear to have a much larger variation in their prices than they do in their ability to remove TOC from aquarium water."

- The Bubble King and Royal Exclusive cone were the only skimmers to exceed 30% TOC removal, both around 35%

- "Recent design innovations like bubble plates, conical sides, or pinwheel impellers do not seem to impact significantly on either rate of TOC removal or amount of TOC removed, at least for the skimmers tested. Thus, skimmer manufacturer claims about enhanced organic removal capabilities should be met with skepticism in the absence of compelling and quantitative TOC removal data."

Personal Notes:

Like most things in this hobby, the science does not always match with manufactures claims.

I purchased this controller several weeks ago and wanted to give a review on it since I do not see it being used much around ARC.

Overall Conclusions:

I think the controller should be considered as an option by most reefers. The price is good and the functionality is great, but setup and coding is more complex than other controllers. The open source nature means the controller will not become obsolete because it can be constantly updated and changed. There are constantly new modules being added to the line to increase the power of the controller. The setup can be very challenging because the instructions are horrible, however, the customer service is top notch and they are happy to walk you through everything.

LIKES:

1. The performance is excellent. Once setup, I have had no problems with the controller operating as desired.
   
2. You can create complex codes (or download them from the forums where others have created them), such as mimicking moon cycles with your moonlights that include random weather events.
   
3. The customer support is really top notch. I had to ask several questions during the set up process and I always received prompt and adequate responses. Roberto, the company owner, also created all the programming I needed to get started and for the controller to be set up as I desired.
   
4. The price of the controller and the accessories is very good. Basic controller is $219. A 2-head peristaltic pump is $99, and a controllable moonlight is $20.
   
5. The open source nature of the controller means that you will be able to constantly update and upgrade as advances are made for the controller.
   
6. There is a strong community of users on the forum who are always willing to help with any problems you have and to help you figure out any coding you need to.
   
7. They are constantly creating new products for the controller. They now have a wireless module and apps for smart phones so you can monitor and control on the go. They have already created (but aren’t selling yet) a module that can control Ecotech Radion LEDs.
   
8. Everything is module—this applies to most controllers. When you need expanded capabilities, you can purchase just the part you need.
   
9. Comes standard with 2 PWM ports to control dimming on lights or other pieces of hardware. Has an expansion box that provides 8 more PWM ports.
   

MEDIOCRE:

1. The dosing pump has two heads. You need to test the flow rate on both heads, mine are not quite even. One head pumps .58ml/sec and the other pumps .61ml/sec. This is not a big deal, just something you need to be aware of. It would be nice if they matched perfectly.
   
2. Programming. I was nervous whether or not I could figure out the programming for the controller. I took one programming class 13 years ago. If you run the controller with basic options (turn lights on at X and off at X and turn off if temp reaches 83), then it is very simple. If you want to start getting into more complex stuff, it takes a bit to figure it out. I spend two or three hours with the code and was able to figure out how to set up my dosing pump to pump exactly when I wanted throughout the day, and how much to pump each time. Plus, there are a ton of codes already programmed on the forum that you can just copy and modify. I would say do not be too worried about the coding, unless you are not computer savvy at all.
   
3. The site does have tutorials on how to program the controller that will give you some basic knowledge. I think they are inadequate, but they give you a start. If you then spend some time looking through the forums at code, you can figure it out. And as stated previously, if you cannot figure it out, email the owner and he is happy to write it up for you. He even annotates it so you understand what each code does, which helps you learn.
   
4. The auto top off has a built in shut off function after 6 minutes. This is nice to ensure you do not flood your tank if a float switch gets stuck. However, I found this to be too short when using an aqualifter pump and had to change pumps.
   

DISLIKES:

1. The setup. I hear the setup is pretty straight forward for PC users as there is a program that installs everything at once. For Mac users, there is no such program. You have to download three or four things from different websites before you can even begin trying to get the controller working.
   
2. The instructions are outdated and, frankly, horrible. I am not sure the instructions have been updated since the controller was created 2 years ago; much has changed on it since then. You cannot follow the instructions and get the controller working because you will download the wrong versions of software. It also includes a code to teach you how to upload codes to the controller; however, the code no longer works with the software revisions to the controller. Thus, a new owner can get very frustrated with the controller during installation. I began to believe it was too complex and I should return it. This was alleviated after talking with Roberto, he set everything straight and got me up and going. Once again, I think this speaks more to Macs than PCs.
   
3. The look of the controller is not high end. It is functional and does the job well, but is not sexy like an Apex or other high-end controllers. I guess you get what you pay for.
   
4. When you purchase expansion modules, they do not come with any instructions. You have to search the forums to find anything you need.
   

If you have any questions or comments, I am happy to respond. I wish I would have taken some pictures, but I haven't and I am out of town. Sorry about that.

I would be weary of making the change for a couple of reasons.

First, I do not know that I would consider changing from the T5s to the MHs an upgrade. 6 T5s with good reflectors should be more than enough light for the tank. With T5s you also have the ability to choose bulbs that fit your preference of light color with more options than MHs. Additionally, as mentioned above, the T5s will run significantly cooler than the MH set up and will use less electricity. If you run the MH set up, you may need to purchase a chiller, adding significant costs.

Second, unless you plan to grow SPS on the bottom of the tank in the shade, your new lighting set up seems to me that it will provide far too much light. The tank is only 18" deep, so you don't need that much power to light the entire tank. If you really wanted to go MH, I might consider sticking just the 2 halides on there and putting 20k bulbs in. Otherwise, I think you will stand a pretty good chance of bleaching a lot of your corals, especially non-sps.

Frankly, I think your money would be better spent elsewhere on the tank because the lighting change will likely not be overly beneficial and will have many more drawbacks than advantages.

Best of luck in whatever you decide.

I was very interested in getting some. Unfortunately, there are not that many corals to choose from and the ones I am interested in are already spoken. I think if you offer more corals, you will have a better chance of making enough sales to make the trip profitable.

They can be used in the old school sense of "wavemaking," where various pumps turn off and on at different times to change the flow in the tank. However, they are not adjustable enough to be used to turn a pump on and off in rapid succession to create a wave like a Tunze Wavebox. You need to be able to control turning a pump off and on in microseconds so that you can find the resonant frequency of your tank, at least to make the largest wave possible.

I would be interested in a few things as well

I just received a Reef Angel controller this weekend. I have not been able to set it up yet, but I plan on doing a write-up about it once I have everything figured out. I really like the ability to program the controller to do anything you want. I also like the expandability.

I will take the 2 headed frog spawn and the AOGs if AquaJohn doesn't take them.

I could go in for a couple of things from BRS.

What kind of epoxy caused the micro-bubble issue? I have used many of the epoxies mentioned in this thread with no problems.

I have heard of people using hydralic cement in these situations without problem. Here is a good thread on it: http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=993625&highlight=crushed+oyster+shells+epoxy

Tank is looking really nice. The two zoa colonies really add some nice color. Looking forward to watching this grow out.

I don't want to turn this person's thread into another VorTech debate. Let's just say to each their own. If people want to overspend on fancy pumps, more power to them. But like I tell everyone, if people are noticing/obsessing about 3 inches of powercord at the top of your tank (which get covered in algae anyway), then your tank's probably not very impressive to begin with.

I would have to disagree on this statement and agree with Richard. In my opinion, there is nothing more that takes away from a tank than seeing a gaggle of powerheads and cords. When I look at pictures of a tank, the first thing my eye is drawn to are the powerheads. When I look into a tank, I want to have the illusion of looking into a slice of the ocean. Artificial objects take away from that experience. While I still find the look of Vortechs obtrusive, they are much better than any of the alternatives out there.

You are completely right, you can build a great tank that performs well without having top of the line everything. You can also buy a corvette that would satisfy most people and do almost as much as a Ferrari, but it will never quite be the same.

I would think 15k is a decent estimate. I was budgeting out my next tank, around 180g, with mostly top end equipment and a custom tank. Before corals, fish, and water, I was hovering around 10k. It would be easy to spend the 5k+ on livestock.

That was when I decided I might need to scale down my plans a good bit.

I will take both, or whatever is not spoken for.

Thanks,

Jason

After reading your post, I would be hesitant to point the finger at the LEDs. The tank is only three months old. There could be a lot of other factors affecting coral coloration then just light. As others have said, I would just leave things alone for now. Give the inhabitants time to adjust to the lights and for the tank to mature.

I am a bit confused by your time line.

Can you lay out how long the tank has been set up, when you purchased the corals you are referring to, and when you outfitted the tank with LEDs.

I would also like a little more info on the number of LEDs you are running, the type, and the power you are providing them (how many MA).

I run an ehiem automatic feeder whenever I am out of town. Works great. Make sure to do some testing on how big you want the opening to make sure you are not putting too much food in the tank.