Robb in Austin Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 The topic below on test kits sparked an idea. A few years ago, the DFW reef club held a test kit party where they tested many tanks using many kits to see what the data showed. I think they sent some samples to aquarium water testing for comparison. Here's a link to their report: http://dfwmas.org/files/TestKitAnalysis.pdf Maybe we could do the same thing, perhaps as a meeting topic. It would be even cooler if one of the sponsors could provide new kits for it. Thoughts? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Mitch Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 + 1 for mtg topic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbharlan91 Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 I think that's a great idea. They put together a nice report, with some interesting conclusions, especially the magnesium and calcium results. I haven't heard of anyone precipitating calcium before an assay in a long time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jestep Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 My criticism is that there was no control on any of these so we don't know if any are actually accurate. Surprised to see how well API was in comparison with the exception of PO4, which in my experience API pretty much registers 0 unless there is some serious PO4 in a tank. Also, if anyone does this in the future, keep the colors and the tester order standard. Not very usable when you have to look at the color chart on every graph. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbharlan91 Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 It wouldn't be that hard to create a control with some freshly made salt water if you're precise with measurements and the manufacturer's listings of chemical concentrations are accurate....I agree that having a control would give more meaning to the accuracy of the results. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mindflux Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 It wouldn't be that hard to create a control with some freshly made salt water if you're precise with measurements and the manufacturer's listings of chemical concentrations are accurate....I agree that having a control would give more meaning to the accuracy of the results. This part is the most difficult because it seems that all MFG's have variances in production. That's why people freak out about testing ALK/Ca (sometimes Mag too) on newly made saltwater, to make sure neither is too high or low. There are other things like Iodine and Strontium that aren't covered in the test that apparently have their role in a reef tank but not many people watch these. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbharlan91 Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 Yeah, all manufacturer's will have variances in their production, but one lot of salt should be consistent for the whole lot, so if they report their results accurately on the bag, then if you make a batch of salt water from that bag, you can calculate the exact concentration of all of the minerals based on your measurements. I just don't know exactly how accurate they will report their results on the package. I don't know much about that manufacturing process for salt, but since it's not a regulated industry, I would imagine that they might not test each lot specifically, they have specs that they're supposed to meet and that's what they publish on the package, and there is going to be some variance from what's on the bag. I'd have to call the mfg and ask if they test for each lot or not, and if they have a certificate of analysis for a particular lot of salt, but it would be interesting to find out! The other option is to get the individual minerals, chemicals etc. and make up your own batch of water, that way you would know exactly the concentration. You'd have to have a pretty good balance though, and who has that laying around at home?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mindflux Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 Yeah, all manufacturer's will have variances in their production, but one lot of salt should be consistent for the whole lot, so if they report their results accurately on the bag, then if you make a batch of salt water from that bag, you can calculate the exact concentration of all of the minerals based on your measurements. I just don't know exactly how accurate they will report their results on the package. I don't know much about that manufacturing process for salt, but since it's not a regulated industry, I would imagine that they might not test each lot specifically, they have specs that they're supposed to meet and that's what they publish on the package, and there is going to be some variance from what's on the bag. I'd have to call the mfg and ask if they test for each lot or not, and if they have a certificate of analysis for a particular lot of salt, but it would be interesting to find out! The other option is to get the individual minerals, chemicals etc. and make up your own batch of water, that way you would know exactly the concentration. You'd have to have a pretty good balance though, and who has that laying around at home?? You got the issues right there. Lots vary, the variations aren't given to the customer (just what's on the package) and so on. The only salt brand I could see having a more consistent result with MIGHT be E.S.V. You get your Salt and Mg in separate bags (not mixed) and your Ca and Alk are in liquid gallon jugs with other 'trace minerals'. Though that doesn't guarantee Ca and Alk don't have a deviation from lot to lot at least the Salt and Mg could be measured by a precise scale. That's the selling point E.S.V goes with for the salt anyway, that since you measure out the 'four major' parts of Saltwater individually you can get the exact parameters you want, every time. (or so they say)... where most salts that are all mixed together are deficient in one area or another or things have settled in the bucket (requires some shaking/rocking/rolling) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbharlan91 Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 that's a good selling point that ESV has - especially if you really want to control your parameters and get the same results every time you add water to your tank. I would hope though that manufacturers would be fairly consistent, so that once you found a brand you liked and stick with it you'd get consistent enough results to keep your tank happy, corals and inverts are living things that are pretty adaptable for survival, so small fluctuations shouldn't hurt them that badly. It reminds me too of a conversation with one of my friends about using RO water versus purified water for injection for your tank water. As far as making a control goes, you would probably have to trust that the manufacturer is correct, make your water, calculate what the concentrations of each component are, and then test it with each testing kit you want to evaluate. The only uncertainty then would be assuming that the manufacturer is correct. You could send it to a lab for testing to check the manufacturer specs, but there's always going to be variation, no matter what you do. True statistical evaluation would be pretty time consuming and expensive for a hobby..... Hopefully most of the testing kits would have comparable results so that you could feel pretty good about the accuracy of the manufacturers specs. I'm starting to ramble....I always get sucked into this kind of stuff....such a science nerd !! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mindflux Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 such a science nerd !! Just a science nerd? Coulda fooled me.... What was it you called me? Electronics nerd? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbharlan91 Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 You hush!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mindflux Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbharlan91 Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 Are you off work today?? Don't you have something better to do than harass me online you electronics dorkus??!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mindflux Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 Are you off work today?? Don't you have something better to do than harass me online you electronics dorkus??!! I'm working! I just happen to be able to multitask. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jharlan Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 Why don't you two get a room????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbharlan91 Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 I already have a room. I'm in it. By myself. Working and bored. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mindflux Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 Why don't you two get a room????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbharlan91 Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 All right.....when the chubacca (however you spell that) jokes start rolling, I'm out! Back to work.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jharlan Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 This is a Reef Club Forum. Not a singles forum! If you two want to flirt, i can suggest a site or two you can try out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbharlan91 Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 This is a Reef Club Forum. Not a singles forum! If you two want to flirt, i can suggest a site or two you can try out. Well now aren't you the funny one! Wasn't this post supposed to be discussing water test kits?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robb in Austin Posted July 15, 2011 Author Share Posted July 15, 2011 Wouldn't it be possible to make, or buy, some controls for Ca/Alk/Mag/SG/pH? No its not a SW control but we could reasonably assume the test kit is giving valid numbers. My thought is to repeat DFWMAS tests to see which kit is better or worse using water from our tanks. Not necessarily find the best salt. Although running tests on new SW would be beneficial. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbharlan91 Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 It's very possible to make a control, if you have the raw materials. I wasn't thinking of trying to find the best salt, but just thinking in terms of having a control water sample - which the Dallas study didn't have. It's harder to tell if the test kits are truly accurate if you don't have a control solution of known concentrations to test them with. And actually, if you have a good control water sample, you don't need a whole bunch of water samples from different aquariums to find out which test kit is best (since everyone's water is going to be slightly different), you just need a good supply of your control water, and all the test kits that you want to check. You run all of your tests on the same water, and then graph the results from each of the different test kits. That would give you a better idea of which kit is the best. That's why I was thinking of using salt manufactured for saltwater tanks, they list the mineral concentrations on their packaging, and you wouldn't have to mix up your own components (I don't have calcium and magnesium and iron, or a balance to weigh them out, sitting around). Only problem is you have to trust the manufacturer to list accurate amounts on their packaging, and I don't think they're all that accurate. If you made a control and based on the info on the packaging it said there was 500mg of calcium in a gallon of water, and your test kits say that there is 600mg in a gallon of water, you wouldn't be able to tell if the kits were that inaccurate, or if the info on the packaging was inaccurate. Another option I just thought of, we could make multiple control samples, one for each component you wanted to test, like pH, or calcium. You could measure out some calcium carbonate and dissolve it in enough water to make the concentration you want, and then use the test kits to check the concentration and compare the results. That way you know the exact concentration and what your result is supposed to be, and can see what kits get the closest result. Not sure how you would make a control for something like nitrates though, would have to think about that one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jestep Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 With an extremely accurate scale (micrograms or smaller) and knowing the expected concentrations of certain chemicals in RO water, it should be possible to have a control for most of these. A high-quality spectrometer/spectrophotometer should be able to tell some as well. A scale like that alone would be tens of thousands of dollars and the others are just as much or more. It's not worth the cost unless some high-end lab wanted to do it for fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbharlan91 Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 I have a micro scale at work, it would be easy to make a control after hours, I just don't have all the raw materials. I have access to some of the components, for example we have some calcium that is past our expiration requirements and is going to be disposed of that I could use, but not all of the components! If we could gather up the raw materials though, I could measure them out and make solutions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robb in Austin Posted July 16, 2011 Author Share Posted July 16, 2011 I wonder if we could contact salt mix mfg's and ask for precisely made samples that meet, according to their equipment, their labeled specs. Would that work? Another thought would be seeing if a public aquarium could provide some water. Presumably, they buy in big enough batches and test consistently enough to provide consistent water. Regardless, as a basic test if 1 person could provide enough water to run multiple tests on all the kits I think we'd have some basic info to draw some, admittedly unscientific, conclusions from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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