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Brooks

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    BPB'S 90 GALLON SPS DOMINANT

    in Tank Builds

    Posted

    Glad to see another person is switching back to T5s. I just got my sunpower fixture and I adore it.

    The bulb combinations and color combinations are endless since you have the ability to dim the two channels, and the bulbs are super easy to change in and out as you see fit!!

    Following along your journey!

    Nitrate DOSING?

    in Small Polyp Stony (SPS)

    Posted · Edited by Brooks

    Victoly,

    Thanks for chiming in! Glad to see you're still here!!

    I've always understood that the amount of N (Nitrogen) is irrelevant in it's basic form. It's importance beings during the nitrogen cycle (nitrogen to nitrite, nitrite to nitrate, then back to N2 which bubbles out of the water column)... and throw ammonia in there somewhere. We can test for it in every (relevant) form aside from its basic elemental state as Nitrogen. Is that correct? I'm hoping so, because relearning this chemistry will make my head HURT!

    You've hit the nail on the head in regards to maintaining the perfect balance of NO3 to PO4. Everyone has a different method of doing so. As a general rule of thumb, you PO4 needs to be less than you NO3.

    NO3 & PO4 are ALWAYS present in the water column, but if your deficit is so great that you become completely absent of either, your corals will begin to die. With a heavier bio load and increased feeding, dosing nitrates is unnecessary. One can assume that those without algae and bacteria issues, heavy bio loads, and good coral growth have their ways of exporting excess nutrients and balancing things out.

    I understand that this method might be foreign and sound strange. Its worth reading into, though. Lets not forget that our hobby is only improved with trials and error; we've all got to be open to new ways of thinking. All in all, the methodology behind this method is proven science in regards to the relationship of nutrients, zoox, and the like. If all else fails, the discussion of this subject will hopefully lead to a much better understanding of water chemistry as it relates to our corals.

    Found this on RC while reading... Food for thought.

    Most are familiar with balances in calcium alkalinity and magnesium but when dealing with nutrients, particulary NO3 and PO4 the common modus operandi seems to be go for 0. The less the better is mostly true but to a point..

    Surface reef waters hold very low levels of NO3, around 0.2ppm and PO4 0.005 ppm Green microalges are known to be limited by levels under .03ppm. Deeper more turbid waters where many lps and leathers live hold considerably more. Even in low level areas the available nutrients are constantly available as upwelling through the reef structure keeps them coming
    So how do we deal with balance and nutrient levels in a reef tank when we want to keep a variety of invetebrates and maybe a macro algae refugium too?

    Invertbrates are usually termed autotrophic/photosynthetic or heterotrophic/non photsynthetic. The truth is almost all of them are mixotrophic and have some variable level of heterotrophic need for organic carbon.. They can not produce all the organic carbon they need from photsynthesis and need some from food or absortion from the water. They also need a relatively constant supply of phospahte and nitrogen. One of the problems with tactics to remove NO3and PO4 is rapid depletion which in some cases occasions significant coral stress and deterioration..
    Reefs are full of food constantly. So called ulns( ultra low nutrient systems ,a common term without precise meaning) are not. Go for zero NO3 and PO4 and then add back elements and ammino acids to make up the loss is the way they work. They might be fine for pastel sps and for folks who like to mange lots of supplements and experiment with them. Many folks like thees approaches,( zeovit systems et al) and enjoy the hobby that way. However, I doubt you can keep many lps growing in them for very long.

    The need for organic carbon was discussed in the previous section. The same principles apply to nitrogen and phosphorous. If either are absent the bacteria will not grow and the carbon dosed can just build up. Excess organic carbon is harmful and covert since we don't measure it.
    Nitrogen defficiencies are commonly reported but are unlikely to occur in a fed tank.

    PO4 deficiencies with heavy adsorbent(gfo, aluminum based adsorbents, et al.) or flocculant ( lanthanum chloride) use may also occur even in a fed tank.

    A few folks dose KNO3( potassium nitrate) to correct nitrogen deficiencies. Many more use amino acids which contain nitrogen. I imagine some dose PO4 in some form too but don't recall any such accounts. Food and fish waste do fine for both.

    Phosphate and nitrate imbalance:

    The bacteria encourage by the organic carbon reduce nitrogen by taking some of it as food along with a proportionate amount of phosphate. However, they also deplete additional NO3 via anaerobic respiration wherein they take the O leaving some of the N to form N2 gas which bubbles out of the tank. This may lead to a situation where some extra low range PO4 is left which can be cleaned up with a little gfo or other remover.

    Nitrate DOSING?

    in Small Polyp Stony (SPS)

    Posted

    I just feed my fish everyday.... no problems here!

    With a heavier bio load and regular feeding, this method is the opposite of what you want to do! ?

    Glad the ole' fashion way works for you! It's awesome when you finally hit the perfect balance.

    Nitrate DOSING?

    in Small Polyp Stony (SPS)

    Posted · Edited by Brooks

    Hey Brooks,

    I actually did it last year when I ran some experiments with controlling nutrient levels with biopellets, GFO, and dosing Spectracide Stump remover. I played with being able to adjust my nutrient levels on the fly and to see if I could use biopellets as a sole source of nutrient removal by dosing additional nitrate to the system to force the biopellets to remove even more phosphate in my system (as carbon dosing is heavily skewed towards nitrate removal), hoping to remove GFO altogether.

    While the ability to control nutrients was achieved, the ability to remove biopellets entirely never really manifested. At a certain point, I could have continued to dose even more nitrates to the system but it seemed like a lot more work than it was worth, not to mention adding the extra element of human error and potentially overdosing nitrates. I thought it safer and more practical to stick with my biopellets and GFO regiment and so the experiment ended.

    Funny you mention this, because when I put my corals back in the tank about 2 weeks ago, I noticed that the colors were pretty faded. It correlates with my decreased nitrate level as I'm currently reading about 0.25 ppm of nitrate in my system using the Red Sea Pro Nitrate test. I was planning on dosing my nitrates back up again (just have to find my old bottle of stump remover) and get it back in the 5-10 ppm range that was treating me so well before. I'll probably only maintain this for a couple weeks because on March 3, my tank will have hit the 76 days of being fallow and I'll slowly start reintroducing fish. At that point, the bioload associated with the fish and feeding them should be able to maintain my nitrates at the 5-10 ppm that I was achieving prior with a full fish population.

    If I had to guess, 70% of the tanks in Austin probably don't need to be thinking about dosing nitrates. It's only when you're being really aggressive with nutrient removal do you need to think about adding nitrates back into the system. The other thing to think about is just because you're reading 0 on your nitrate kit, doesn't mean you don't have a nitrate problem. If you see excessive algae in your system and you're reading 0, the algae is really uptaking all your nitrates... so if you start dosing nitrates because you think you're deficient, you'll see an algae bloom in the tank and your nitrates STILL may read 0.

    Either case, I'm glad you posted it as information like this helps to further our knowledge of reef keeping and brings the discussion to ARC. I caution though that most will probably never need to do this so make sure you do your research before you start dumping stump remover into your system.

    Hey Ty! Glad to see you're a night owl just as I am.

    What a GREAT post! Thank you for sharing your experiences with this method. I'm going to (attempt) to elaborate on my thoughts on the matter, and hopefully make sense of everything I've read including your thoughts. PLEASE PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong anywhere - it most certainly wouldn't be the first time doh.giffish.gif . I can use my 2+ year hiatus as an excuse!

    There is definitely a lot of reading to do on the subject. I agree that those with algae issues definitely need to assess their specific needs before using this method. Those afflicted with the algal curse like GHA, or worse, cyano, may have higher PO4 and lower NO3. Luckily cyano can be treated (in most cases) by Chemiclean, unlike GHA which is treated well and effectively with nutrient balance and/or manual removal (I always liked my Lawnmower Blenny rock.gif ).

    But what of those who consistently get readings of 0ppm NO3 & PO4, don't suffer the headache of a buildup of algae/cyno, but DO struggle to keep more difficult corals such as SPS alive? With a lighter bioload and little to no excess nutrients, dosing might be a viable solution. Or, reducing their exportation of excess nutrients and increasing their bioload to achieve these results organically. It all varies based on what your specific tank needs are. If I have a heavy bioload, and an lite-moderate method of eliminating excess nutrients, this theory would DEFINITELY not be a good fit for my needs. Perhaps carbon dosing would prove to be more effective if this was my case.

    I remember years ago, when I first started diving into the wonderful world of Reef Keeping, hitting that 0ppm mark was AWESOME! After a while, I stopped checking my PO4 and NO3 levels, as I never tested above 0ppm. I also HATED water changes... and still do... so I stopped performing them regularly. Then, I began to notice excellent growth and great PE (mainly in that Sunset Milli colony... I miss that thing). I tested my water and saw the NO3 levels were around 2-3ppm. I inevitably accepted that I wouldn't be able to get them lower due to my increased bioload in a 34g Solana. Heck, the fact that I had a Fuzzy Dwarf Lion who loved ghost shrimp and being hand-fed (my mother really loved that trick) could alone build up NO3 REALLLLY quick. It really wasn't until I began reading these articles and posts that I remembered the "eureka," moment I had so long ago.

    Now, I can't say with a great deal of certainty that was the only contributing factor, but perhaps it did play an integral part in the success of my tank.

    I'm super glad to hear that you did find success in making your corals happy with this method, even if done while fallow. That shows that the theory behind this methodology is correct! I understand with the reintroduction of fish might eliminate the need to resort to this method again. Especially if you're a heavy feeder. But, what if your nutrient exportation IS so heavy that you begin to get into a dangerously low level of nutrients? Would you begin dosing again, or lean towards something else?

    Thanks again for engaging! Hopefully this thread helps some of our members! rock.gif

    Nitrate DOSING?

    in Small Polyp Stony (SPS)

    Posted · Edited by Brooks

    If there is already a thread about this, I apologize for the redundancy.

    Nitrate Dosing is something I would've never thought of. EVER. For years the stigma has always been to keep your tank extremely clean; carbon dosing, GFO, etc. etc. No nitrates, no phosphates, no... anything! Well, times have most certainly changed! I would love to hear thoughts about this, and see if there is anyone else here locally who has given this thought.

    I highly suggest reading the information on R2R before diving into any decisions.

    Here is my synopsis after reading over 39 pages of information and people's experiences using this method:

    1. Corals need "food," to survive. Food = NO3 & PO4.

    2. Nitrate levels of 2-5ppm & Phosphates of .02ppm - .08ppm (ideally .02ppm) = better coral health, coloration and growth.

    3. Begin dosing Nitrogen directly into your system. Spectracide Stump Remover = KNo3 (Potassium Nitrate). 2 tbs of spectracide x 2 cups of water. Mix thoroughly and stir until clear. Store in air-tight container for later use.

    4. Dose accordingly, starting slowly at 5-10ml (especially for smaller tanks) until your NO3 levels begin to rise. For many who use GFO, Carbon, and other sources of NO3 & PO4 removal will of course have to dose more, and more often as your system eats it up faster. Its all a balancing act, and everyone will have different dosage requirements for their own tank. It is not quite a proven science, but I'm definitely going to give it a whirl!

    People have been using this method, and it seems to be doing great things. Please read the below for more detailed information. I have also included links to 2 threads on R2R.

    Ok this writeup is just something I will do to reference everyone who has ulns (ultra low nutrient systems).

    Constantly I am asked in mails, forums, etc how to solve this issue. I will explain how I came up with this solution and how you can overcome this disheartening problem.

    For this post I will go over the acronyms and what I mean when I use them.

    po4: phosphate / phosphorus
    no3: nitrate / nitrogen
    C: carbon
    ulns: ultra low nutrient system
    lns: low nutrient system

    ulns has been used so much I dont know where to begin with what it "really" is. However for the sake of this article it means that you have a no3 and po4 deficit.
    What is a no3 and po4 deficit you ask? It means that if you were to dose phosphorus and nitrogen in to the system that it would eat it up and get you down to 0 ppm without any water changes.

    Contrary to popular belief. A REAL 0 ppm no3 and po4 reading is a major problem. You will witness corals pale, turn bone white, while people tell you to feed more or turn down the lights. There is some truth to this but let us get to the heart of the matter shall we?

    A long time ago some old guy (who is gone now) discovered something called the redfield ratio. (google this for more info as i will do a synopsis)
    Redfield ratio and all it's spin-off theories state that photosynthesis occurs in the ocean at a near universal rate of 106C:16:no3:1 po4.

    Now while I wont get in to the deviations of benthic macroalgae or of other life. It is a REAL GOOD IDEA to use it as a guideline.

    So what does that mean to the aquarist?
    Well it means if you do not have no3, or po4, or carbon.... bye bye corals. They have nothing to photosynthesize. They cant use alternative fuel like lithium or plutonium to synthesize... so they pale. The zooxanthellae which is a dinoflagellate is the same as algae. (in layman's terms). They need it. And you probably have just enough no3 and po4 to get them hold on for dear life.

    How do we solve it?
    Well we know that po4 is the LEAST needed for photosynthesis. So getting it is easy to come by. Even by my tank which sucks up nutrients like a sponge. Every time you feed, touch, or even look at the tank, po4 will be in the water column. The only exception to this is a GFO overdose. If you are overdosing GFO you will basically have nothing for it to photosynthesize. Remember the redfield ratio of 16no3 to 1po4? yeah... it's a marriage. Need em all buddy. So make sure you have some.

    I have observed that po4 measurements of .02ish is optimum. However up to .08 is fine as well. (although some life will get irked)

    no3 should be around 2ppm - 5ppm for optimal coral coloration. If 2ppm or below is observed for longer than a week, corals will pale. Mine will pale within 72 hours. It is essential to keep no3 above po4 to prevent nuisance algae like GHA and to not get in to the cyano trap of po4 being greater than no3.

    How do we avoid this? Well we can use sodium nitrate (the byproduct is salt and relatively safe) or potassium nitrate (byproduct can be potassium and possibly overdose). I choose the latter because I do have a potassium kit and it is readily available within Seachem's Flourish Nitrogen formula. Care should be taken and warning should be given. I have not observed any detrimental effects, however if you want to go the powdered "pure" route, you can look up salt peter or spectracide stump remover from lowes which is essentially the same stuff.

    Alkalinity has been also an issue with ULNS. I have observed alk above 8 to make my birdnest recede and even RTN if approaching the 9s. Many a birdnest I have lost wondering what my issue was until I dropped alk down to the 7s. I personally maintain alk between 7.2 and 7.8 at all times. At 8 or above... my sps get irritable. This could also be the issue with ulns and high alk where burnt tips occur due to the skeletal formation of calcium carbonate forming faster than the photosynthetic ability of the coral via the zooxanthellae.

    LIGHT:
    If you have strong strong light and you have no nutrients, you are really just stressing the heck out of the sps because there is nothing to photosynthesize. You need these nutrients, and the less you have, the lesser your light should be discourage photosynthesis. We are always told more light, more par, more pur, but in the end, if the building blocks are not there... degradation occurs. There is no reason to have a 1000 hp engine, if you have no gas to go somewhere.

    ARTICLE ABOVE:

    http://www.reef2reef.com/threads/help-my-sps-are-paling-and-i-dont-know-what-to-do.210035/

    DOSING GUIDE:

    http://reef2reef.com/threads/potassium-nitrate-spectracide-stump-remover-dosing-steps.215730/

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