George Monnat Jr

DIssolving CO2 in a planted tank will absolutely drop the pH, markedly if you overdo it.

That's what I assumed. How much of a drop have any of you observed? Mine's around 7.2 and I don't really want to drop below 7. I have Anubias and Java Fern, so I don't think I need CO2, yet.

Has anyone seen a drop in pH with CO2? It adds carbonic acid to the water, which is why marine biologists are freaked out about 'global warming'. I know with the SW tank opening windows raised pH as CO2 was blown out of the room. Do you see a big swing, or it's small enough to where you don't care?

Was anyone unable to see the video? I used the "anyone can see it" Facebook URL. If anyone wants to see the rest of the videos and pictures, just send me a Facebook friend request.

That was in your DT or sump? You'll know it's too big a spike if you see abiotic precipitation (snow storm, siezed pumps, etc.) or your livestock gets angry. I would add slower to avoid the spikes, but if that was over an hour it might be ok. My Apex was good for that. I dosed kalk with vinegar to my skimmer section of the sump, and the ATO shut off if the float switch opened or the pH spiked too high.

You're welcome.

Here's my carbon dosing notes (any highlights are probably mine):

tmz on Reef Central: Vodka, vinegar,biopellets and other organic carbon dosing

“Vodka, vinegar, biopellets and other organic carbons.Why dose them? Why not dose them?

There a have been a number of questions on organic carbon dosing and are thousands of posts on the Reef Chemsitry forum. I have many pms on this subject . This thread is intended to help folks who are considering using them. I'll discuss what they do and offer comparisons on various methods for folks to consider. It is a complex subject and much is still unknown but I'll try to avoid being arcane. I'll do it in sections and take questions along the way if you have them.

The goals for organic carbon dosing are: reducing NO3 and PO4 thus allowing tanks to support more bioload and feeding than otherwise; adding bacteria at the bottom of the food web.

Let's start with the bacteria.

The first objective when dosing organic C( carbon) is to proliferate bacteria in the aquarium that will take up inorganic nitrogen(N) and inorganic phosphate(Pi) commonly referred to as NO3/ nitrate and PO4/orthophosphate).

As bacteria multiply, they convert the inorganic N and P ,commonly called nutrients( NO3 and PO4) in the hobby, to organic forms as part of their bodies or as by products.These organics can be consumed in the food chain and/or exported by foam fractionation ( skimming) and/ or adsorbents like granulated activated carbon (GAC). The inorganic N and P can not be exported short of large water changes unless it is converted to an organic form via biological activity by bacteria ,algae,sponges etc. Inorganic N and P do not bind to GAC and are not attractedt o the air water interface which makes them unskimmable.

The bacteria involved in this process are facultative heterotrophic bacteria of various species with dominance related to the type of organic carbon they are breaking down.

Facultative means they flourish in environments with and without oxygen. Taking the free oxygen first as it takes less enrgy for them to do so and then moving on to the oxygen fixed to nitrate( NO3).

Heterotrophic means they need a source of organic carbon© since they can't make their own as they are non photosynthetic. Organic carbon is a critical nutrient for all living things along with N and P.. We don' hear about C as much as N and because we can't measure it with hobby grade equipment. There will be more on this in the next section which will be on the nutrients.

The bacteria will use the oxygen in a particular area and when it's gone they start taking it from the NO3; the later process is known as anaerobic respiration. This occurs even in thin bacterial films. Once the bonds between the O3 and N are broken by these bacteria, the resulting N binds to N forming N2( nitrogen gas) which bubbles out of the tank. This adds to the N taken out as food thus depleting additional N from the aquarium. The relative amounts of aerobic( free oxygen consuming ) activity and anaerobic activity will vary from tank to tank spending on a number of variable like surface area,flow etc.

OK, time for a break and some discussion before moving on to the nutrients, alternative carbon sources and a few other things.

…

The nutrients:

There are three: C (carbon) , N ( nitrogen) an (P) phosphorus.

They are all formed in large stars. They bring the energy of the universe to life forms. They all cylce .

They are present in oragnic forms( bound to one or more H protons) or inorganic forms.

Carbon is present as CO2 and carbonate ,bicarbonate and carbonic acid in it's inorganic forms. It is also present as organics : polymers I (carbohydrates ), monomers(sugars) ,ethanol, acetic acid et alia. It is essential for life paticularly as organic carbon from photosyntesis which traps the light enegy of the sun in the bonds.

Nitrogen is a abundant as N2 nitrogen gas makes up about 78% of the earth's athmosphere. It is present in organic forms like NH3 and 4 (ammonia),proteins , dna etc or inorganic forms like NO2(nitrite) and NO3(nitrate) .

" Nitrogen is a constituent element of amino acids and thus of proteins and nucleic acids (DNA and RNA). It resides in the chemical structure of almost all neurotransmitters, and is a defining component of alkaloids, biological molecules produced by many organisms. The human body contains about 3% by weight of nitrogen, a larger fraction than all elements save oxygen, carbon, and hydrogen." wikepedia.

Phosphorous is present as inorganic phosphate also called orthophosphate and organically bound forms .

"Phosphorus is essential for life. As phosphate, it is a component of DNA, RNA, ATP, and also the phospholipids that form all cell membranes." Wikepedia.

OK , I'll stop for now . Questions? It's really enough to know these three elements C,N,P are needed by living things and are only useful to life in certain forms and balances. Significant variations can either produce udesireable life forms , like excess cyanobacteria or nusiance algae or create conditions that kill or crash a tank full of invertebrates or fish.Therein lies the challenge, having enough of them( not none as some systems strive for) in the right forms which are changing in the blink of an eye in response to conditions like ph and in the right balance or ratios to meet the needs of the particular organisms in a particular tank.

…

There are many unknowns about the process of organic carbon dosing in a reef tank. There are millions of players and complex interactions. There are some things we know and can reasonably extrapolate ; some things that seem at first to be counter intuitive, and; somethings we don't know at all and probly haven't even thought of yet. Confusing it all even more are lot's of pet theories and commercial products for organic carbon dosing or super bacteria with secret proprietary formulae backed by little , no mistated science.

One question that puzzles me is: where does the organic carbon go? Why does dosing it proliferate bacteria ? Since we add organic C,N and P mostly from foods derived from biological matter ,we know it contains C N and P in appropriate proportions for life.

Quantitative assays for most of the seas in the world have been done for C,N and P .The en masse ratio for these elements in sea life has been known since 1934 when the Redfiled ratio was published. There are 116 parts C to 16 parts N to 1 part P.

So when we feed the tank or an organisms decays we get approximately that ratio of C.N and P( individual organisms inculding the bacteria vary a bit but the ratio is a good general measure and gives perspective) .

Further, photosyntetic organisms in a reeftank add more organic C as they produce it as sugars from CO2 ,water and light.

Seems like the heterotrophic bacteria should just keep on truckin until all of the energy in the organic C ,N and P was used up tuning the phosphate to mineral form, the nitrogen to N2 gas and the organic carbon to CO2 , acetate or methane.

If that were the case, there wouldn't be any excess NO3 or PO4 hanging around making trouble. Heterotrophic bacteria of one species or another will use every bit of energy unless they are limited by a lack of organic C or N or P. So if the bacteria stop growing they leave NO3 and PO4 unused which would not happen unless a lack of organic carbon was limiting them.Where does it go?

Perhaps the organic C leaves as CO2 as the sugar is used for energy by living things. Some might be converted to lipids and exported via skimming or stored by the creatures using it. Some might hang around as fulvic and humic sustances which by their refractory nature resist degradation by bacteria. I don't know. I do know that when polymers(carbohydrates) ,monomers( sugars et alia) ,ethanol or acetic acid et alia are added bacteria proliferate and NO3 and PO4 levels drop as these bacteria and their by products which move the NO3 and PO4 back to exportable organic forms are exported via skimming and gac.

The processes involved are known as anaerobic digestion , acetogensis or methanogenis. A cascade of bacterial species degrade carbohydrates( starches, potatoes, rice ,plastic bio pellets, etc) to monomers( sugars like glucose, fructose, siucrose) then others take the monomers to lipids and ethanol ,others take the ethanol (vodka) to acetic acid(vinegar); others to acetate ,and; others to methane. That is an oversimplified summary of the processes. Not all of this occurs in a reef tank. How much does is unknown . BTW ,methane is produced in anoic muck and mire and very deep( 100s of meters ,IIRC,) of sand depth. So I wouldn't worry about blowing up your tank .

…

Most are familiar with balances in calcium alkalinity and magnesium but when dealing with nutrients, particulary NO3 and PO4 the common modus operandi seems to be go for 0. The less the better is mostly true but to a point..

Surface reef waters hold very low levels of NO3, around 0.2ppm and PO4 0.005 ppm Green microalges are known to be limited by levels under .03ppm. Deeper more turbid waters where many lps and leathers live hold considerably more. Even in low level areas the available nutrients are constantly available as upwelling through the reef structure keeps them coming

So how do we deal with balance and nutrient levels in a reef tank when we want to keep a variety of invetebrates and maybe a macro algae refugium too?

Invertbrates are usually termed autotrophic/photosynthetic or heterotrophic/non photsynthetic. The truth is almost all of them are mixotrophic and have some variable level of heterotrophic need for organic carbon.. They can not produce all the organic carbon they need from photsynthesis and need some from food or absortion from the water. They also need a relatively constant supply of phospahte and nitrogen. One of the problems with tactics to remove NO3and PO4 is rapid depletion which in some cases occasions significant coral stress and deterioration..

Reefs are full of food constantly. So called ulns( ultra low nutrient systems ,a common term without precise meaning) are not. Go for zero NO3 and PO4 and then add back elements and ammino acids to make up the loss is the way they work. They might be fine for pastel sps and for folks who like to mange lots of supplements and experiment with them. Many folks like thees approaches,( zeovit systems et al) and enjoy the hobby that way. However, I doubt you can keep many lps growing in them for very long.

The need for organic carbon was discussed in the previous section. The same principles apply to nitrogen and phosphorous. If either are absent the bacteria will not grow and the carbon dosed can just build up. Excess organic carbon is harmful and covert since we don't measure it.

Nitrogen defficiencies are commonly reported but are unlikely to occur in a fed tank.

PO4 deficiencies with heavy adsorbent(gfo, aluminum based adsorbents, et al.) or flocculant ( lanthanum chloride) use may also occur even in a fed tank.

A few folks dose KNO3( potassium nitrate) to correct nitrogen deficiencies. Many more use amino acids which contain nitrogen. I imagine some dose PO4 in some form too but don't recall any such accounts. Food and fish waste do fine for both. [only a problem in reef tanks with no fish!]

…

Should I dose organic carbon?

It depends on your tank and your goals. If the tank supports the life you want in it without high NO3 and PO4 or excessive nuisance algae growth ,then dosing is unnecessary. If you use some PO4 removers, macro algae, etc and don't have a problem with cyano hair algae or high nutrients and are happy with those methods then dosing is probably not right for your tank and routine. If, however , your tank reaches a point where more help is needed to balance the nutrients at low levels and you like to feed your fish , organic carbon dosing is very useful.

The bacterial proliferation boosts the food web from the bottom up too . Some corals like zoanthus thrive with it ,in my 3+ year experience dosing vodka and vinegar.. Sponge growth is also proliferous. Some corals do fine but grow better in higher nutrient tanks; euphyllia caulastrea and some anemones are notable examples.

There are potential downsides. When you dose an organic carbon and bactierial activity accelerates the tank changes in terms of the nutrieints in it,the food web , water clairty and light penetration, and I suspect the organization of the organics and other parametrs. CO2 is produced resulting in some reduction in ph., Metals and other trace elements may also be used in greater quantities or more readily bound to organics which can be a good thing. Overdosing may lead to bacterial blooms and oxygen depletion. Some corals may react badly to certain types of organic carbon dosing like sugars even in low doses. . Most will react negatively if too much of any type is used to soon.

Many are using iorganic carbon dosing in one form or another as it is a very effective control for NO3 and there really aren't many others as easy or inexpensive . Denitrifiers, large heavily lit refugia, or perhaps turf scrubbers are all more difficult ime. Dosing also reduces PO4 but may not take it as far down as desired in a particualr tank. If gfo is or another phospahte remover is still needed for the low range PO4 ,it will be much less than before dosing though .

Total organic carbon buildup may also be a concern.;however, with good skimming and gac use it hasn't had any adverse effects in my tanks.

Here is a little more reading on organics and some potential issues with elevated total organic carbon (TOC) from another post of mine:

Organic carbon is a nutrient. Living things need it along with nitrogen and phosphorous. It comes in with food and from biological activity . Photosynthetic animals make it from water and CO2 and capture the energy, light from the sun, in it.

It takes a myriad of forms from carbohydrates to simple sugars to complex chains of alellopathic compunds. Some of these bind to GAC. We can't measure it with hobby equipment; analyzers used by oceanographers, run in the 50k price range. Elevated total organic carbon (TOC)is thought to adversely effect croal symbionts and has been associated with coral stress and mortality. Folks dose it as vinegar, vodka, sugar or carbohydrates like bio pellets to encourage bacterial growth.

Randy Farely discusses organics in this article:

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-10/rhf/index.php

These articles may also be of interest:

By Ken S. Feldman, Kelly M. Maers

Department of Chemistry, The Pennsylvania State University, University Park, PA 16802. Ken and Kelly report on their work on Total Organic Carbon and how it relates to the reef aquarium.

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-10/rhf/index.php

and Part 2:

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2008/9/aafeature2/

Here are my standard links for kalkwasser/limewater:

What Your Grandmother Never Told You About Lime

A Simple DIY Kalk Dripper

All about kalkwasser

This article has good stuff about carbon dosing and limewater (my highlights): Phosphate and the Reef Aquarium

1. One big winner is macroalgae growth. Not only does it do a good job of reducing phosphate levels, but it reduces other nutrients (e.g., nitrogen compounds) as well. It is also inexpensive and may benefit the aquarium in other ways, such as being a haven for the growth of small life forms that help feed and diversify the aquarium. It is also fun to watch. I'd also include in this category the growth of any organism that you routinely harvest, whether corals (e.g., Xenia sp.) or other photosynthetic organisms.

2. Skimming is another big winner, in my opinion. Not only does it export organic forms of phosphate, reducing the potential for them to break down into inorganic phosphate, but it reduces other nutrients and increases gas exchange. Gas exchange is an issue that many aquarists don't ordinarily recognize, but it is the primary driver of reef aquarium pH problems.

3. The use of limewater, and possibly other high pH alkalinity supplements, is also a good choice. It can be very inexpensive, and it solves two other big issues for reefkeepers: maintaining calcium and alkalinity. Simply keeping the pH high in a reef aquarium (8.4) may help prevent phosphate that binds to rock and sand from re-entering the water column. Allowing the pH to drop into the 7s, especially if it drops low enough to dissolve some of the aragonite, may serve to deliver phosphate to the water column. In such systems (typically those with carbon dioxide reactors), raising the pH may help.

4. Commercial phosphate binding agents clearly are effective. They can be expensive and may have other drawbacks, but can drive inorganic phosphate to very low levels, if that is a goal.

5. Driving bacterial growth is another option [done with vinegar!]. Not only does it do a good job of reducing phosphate levels, it reduces other nutrients as well (e.g., nitrogen compounds). It is also very inexpensive and may benefit the aquarium in other ways, such as providing a food source for certain organisms. Its drawbacks are that it makes it difficult not to drive the nutrient levels too low, and the fact that it consumes oxygen as the bacteria use the added organics as a carbon source.

…Fortunately, steps can be taken even in the absence of any algae problem that will benefit reef aquaria in a variety of ways, not the least of which is reduction of phosphate levels. These include skimming and growing macroalgae.“

I forgot to mention that there were a dozen manta rays that night from 8' to 16' wingspan. At 100 pounds/1', that means up to 1600 pounds of fish swimming against us and occasionally wacking me with wings and belly.

Pics or it didn't happen!

I included a link to the best video. I have 17 more, most of which I posted on my FB page (which I reactivated just for this). My FB name is just like my ARC name, so send a request and watch tons of mantas

We finally got to the Big Island and dove off of Kona as part of our 20th wedding anniversary. The seas were rough which cancelled half our dives, but we did two the morning of April 6th, 2014 and the Manta Ray Dive on April 7th. Even with the rough seas causing reduced visibility and surge bouncing us around, the manta ray dive was freakin' awesome. We'll be going back next year when it's calmer to do it again.

Thomas, I knew your brother as a wonderful person. I barely knew him, but I feel the loss and will miss him.

Ty, I sent you a donation to your PayPal. Let me know if you don't see it.

Thanks Ty, I'll do that.

I'm in. Should I do the Ty Pay Pal thing?

Last night I was too bummed out to respond. I didn't know Tim very well, but we were on a first name basis since I bought some frags from him and occasionally saw him at RCA. He was a great guy, and his passing is a big loss for the Austin reefing community and our community in general.

I was conflicted about 'liking' the OP, but I did as thanks to Jake for posting it.

Developed at Rice, that's cool.

Yea, I'm sure it was a daylight savings bug. As Homer says, "Stupid farmers."

I still have the older firmware, too.

Yes, my last log was 01:50 03/09/2014. Delayed Y2K?

It was getting difficult to track it and make sure people could borrow it. The guys at RCA were already handling that for me, so it only made sense. Jake insisted on giving me store credit (I haggled him down some). He's becoming an expert with the meter, so please see him and the RCA guys for help with your lights.

Today I transferred my PAR meter to River City Aquatics (RCA). They've been handling it for me to help ARC members take turns borrowing it. It's now theirs, and they'll continue helping out ARC members with it. The rules for borrowing it are now completely at their discretion, but they're very helpful in general and especially so with ARC members. If you need to borrow it, pop into RCA (and buy some stuff, too ). If you have technical questions, please read this and/or PM me.

I'd like to go.

debunked

Awesome find.

I want one, too, but I'm sceptical that it'll work down to 60+ feet. And how do you inflate your bouancy control devices, dry suits, etc. and integrate with your computer? Back-up air is also a problem if it fails, so I'm guessing you need to wear a cylinder anyway. Will be great for snorkeling, doing real shallow dives, or as a backup device.

I've only been diving on Oahu, so I don't have any useful information. And I'm jealous

This is making me I have been certified for a long time but have not been is about 17 years. my daughter was saying yesterday that we should go, So I checked the a place in Austin for her to get certified and maybe a refresher course for me. Any suggestions about the better stores in the area for instruction and such?

I did my refresher at Dive World, my wife got certified at Scubaland and we've done a ton of classes at Scubaland. We really like Scubaland. They do their winter diving in Reveille Peak Ranch.

If you're by Stillhouse Hollow Lake, you can use Scuba Divers Paradise. They're SSI but good people.