ejaustin Posted May 7, 2006 Share Posted May 7, 2006 Hi, y'all, First, a quick description of where I'm at and where I think I might be going. Several weeks ago, I went to Port Lavaca (my favorite place on the coast, bar none!). We came home with a hermit crab. I have finally made a tentative ID on this guy: a Thinstripe Hermit Crab (clibanarius vittatus). The best pic I've found that looks like him is this one: http://wading-in.net/Tank/Hermitride.html. I went to an LFS and explained the situation to them and came away with a 1.5 gallon tank and a neon velvet damselfish. Since then, I've discovered that this tank is nowhere near big enough for these critters. However, I expect to be moving in the next 6 months to a year, and I don't want to have to move a big tank. So my goal is to set up an interim tank that I will keep very lightly stocked and use to learn about keeping a marine aquarium. I've purchased a 29 gallon tank as the next step. It's set up and has 40 pounds of live sand and about 17 pounds of live rock. (7.6 pounds of Tonga from AA and 9.5 pounds of Fiji, I think). It has an AquaClean filter system that's rated up to 50 gallons. It has a 20 W Coralife 50/50 fluorescent light that says it's "50% natural daylight 6000K 50% actinic 03 blue". It has a glass top and a plastic piece that can over the part of the top not covered by the glass. For monitoring, I have one of those in-the-tank SeaChem Ammonia monitors, an ammonia test kit, a Red Sea hydrometer, a thermometer, and Mardel test strips that check nitrate, nitrite, alkalinity, and pH. No heater or chiller. The big chunk of live rock has been in the tank for 6 days. I added the Tonga rock yesterday. Both are starting to get "hairy" in places. I have the light on during the day and off at night (I'm not using a timer for it). The SeaChem thing shows that the ammonia level is okay. The ammonia test kit showed somewhere between 0.25 and 0.50 ppm. Test strip registered 0 nitrites and 20 ppm nitrates. The temperature is a fairly stable 77 F or so. The hydrometer shows between 1.021 and 1.022 SG. Okay, now to my questions! The lighting fixture looks like it's designed to fit directly on to the top of the tank, but I'm concerned about the salt water getting up into the contacts. Should it go on top of the glass instead? Is there some kind of lighting I can add to be able to observe night-time behavior? The filter hangs on the back of the tank. Where is the best place to have the intake/outflow of the filter? The only way I've thought of to evaluate the water flow through the tank is to drop some food flakes in and watch how they move. Overall, the flow throughout the tank looks okay to me, but I'm not a fish. I'm not doing anything to monitor minerals like calcium or magnesium. Is this important, given my goals (no corals or anything ambitious like that)? Based on my reading, I'm wondering if I should separate the crab and the fish. Evidently, these crabs get *huge*. (The pic I cited earlier says that the crab in that pic is nearly as big as the photographer's fist!) And they have a reputation for not working and playing well with others. So I'm thinking it might be best to give him his own tank. I've also read that these crabs climb seawalls and whatnot, so I'm thinking it would be nice for him if he had some dry ground to wander around if the mood strikes him. So I'm thinking that perhaps I should get a frog-type tank (long, relatively low, relatively small) and give him an area with water with a sandy bottom and an area of land. I'm not sure if he'd like a companion and I'm also not sure where I will find shells big enough for him as he grows. Or am I just being entirely silly about this? If I put him in his own tank, would it be a good idea to add it to the circulation of the main tank? I'm thinking that way he could feed partially on the floaties from the main tank (pre-filtering) and then the water would go from him tank to the filtering system and back to the main tank. If I understand things, this would essentially be a sump? OTOH, I'm looking for an immediate solution to get us through until we move and more long-term solutions could wait until after the move, assuming everyone survives. And I'm thinking how to stock the 29 gallon tank. The damselfish, obviously. I understand that damselfish like to be around other damsels, but not too many other damsels. Or are there some types of damsels who prefer not to see anyone else who looks like them? If so, how can I find out which is true for the neon velvet damsel? In addition to that, I'm thinking I want some kind of (fish) cleaner fish because it just seems like a good idea. I'm considering a neon goby (I just like the neon blue on a dark background, I guess). I want somebody to help keep the inside of the glass clean, which I think would mean snails (and might add to the importance of segregating the hermit). And somebody to see to sand stirring/maintenance (especially if I segregate the hermit). The tank is still cycling, of course, so there's no urgency here, but I'd appreciate any feedback. Thanks for taking the time to read all this. ej Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammondegge Posted May 7, 2006 Share Posted May 7, 2006 The lighting fixture looks like it's designed to fit directly on to the top of the tank, but I'm concerned about the salt water getting up into the contacts. Should it go on top of the glass instead? typically this would cause a heat problem, but with a 20w light you can set it on the glass Is there some kind of lighting I can add to be able to observe night-time behavior? Blue LEDs - make your own, or you can buy them set up, called moonlights The filter hangs on the back of the tank. Where is the best place to have the intake/outflow of the filter? what ever looks best The only way I've thought of to evaluate the water flow through the tank is to drop some food flakes in and watch how they move. Overall, the flow throughout the tank looks okay to me, but I'm not a fish. additional flow is best added with powerheads - maxijets would be good for your setup. since you will not have corals then you really only need enough flow to keep algaes down and to keep detritus off the bottom so the filter can pick it up. I'm not doing anything to monitor minerals like calcium or magnesium. Is this important, given my goals (no corals or anything ambitious like that)? just monitor PH and nitrate for your set up Based on my reading, I'm wondering if I should separate the crab and the fish. Evidently, these crabs get *huge*. (The pic I cited earlier says that the crab in that pic is nearly as big as the photographer's fist!) And they have a reputation for not working and playing well with others. So I'm thinking it might be best to give him his own tank. I've also read that these crabs climb seawalls and whatnot, so I'm thinking it would be nice for him if he had some dry ground to wander around if the mood strikes him. So I'm thinking that perhaps I should get a frog-type tank (long, relatively low, relatively small) and give him an area with water with a sandy bottom and an area of land. I'm not sure if he'd like a companion and I'm also not sure where I will find shells big enough for him as he grows. Or am I just being entirely silly about this? If I put him in his own tank, would it be a good idea to add it to the circulation of the main tank? I'm thinking that way he could feed partially on the floaties from the main tank (pre-filtering) and then the water would go from him tank to the filtering system and back to the main tank. If I understand things, this would essentially be a sump? OTOH, I'm looking for an immediate solution to get us through until we move and more long-term solutions could wait until after the move, assuming everyone survives. i got rid of my gulf hermits - LFS - they did not bother any fish but they were too big and kept knocking things over. blue leg hermits work a lot better And I'm thinking how to stock the 29 gallon tank. The damselfish, obviously. I understand that damselfish like to be around other damsels, but not too many other damsels. Or are there some types of damsels who prefer not to see anyone else who looks like them? If so, how can I find out which is true for the neon velvet damsel? In addition to that, I'm thinking I want some kind of (fish) cleaner fish because it just seems like a good idea. I'm considering a neon goby (I just like the neon blue on a dark background, I guess). I want somebody to help keep the inside of the glass clean, which I think would mean snails (and might add to the importance of segregating the hermit). And somebody to see to sand stirring/maintenance (especially if I segregate the hermit). consider what fish you really want before adding any more damsels. damsels can be aggressive and may preclude the addition of more interesting and passive fish. read up a lot on fish compatibility The tank is still cycling, of course, so there's no urgency here, but I'd appreciate any feedback. Thanks for taking the time to read all this. here are some links for reading and consultation www.wetwebmedia.com www.reefkeeping.com www.advancedaquarist.com www.melevsreef.com read as much as you can and take your time. post all your questions to this site and you will get good advice. a good starter book is "The New Marine Aquarium" - Michael S. Paletta Welcome to ARC and to the obsession laughing9.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammondegge Posted May 7, 2006 Share Posted May 7, 2006 oh, and a Lawnmower blenny is a great starter fish/cleaner fish. Bonus is 'lots of personality'. http://www.saltwaterfish.com/site_11_03/pr...f202b9d6d9f3f66 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejaustin Posted May 8, 2006 Author Share Posted May 8, 2006 Hi, Michael, Thanks for the thoughtful responses. I know that there's tons of stuff I need to learn and I'm spending a lot of my time reading web sites. I appreciate you recommending some sites. My experience with Web sites on topics that I know something about is that it can be difficult to judge how accurate a site is if you don't have some basic knowledge to start with, so it's helpful to get links from someone who has a better basis for spotting sites that are inaccurate. I'll think over what you said about the crab. It's sounding more and more like keeping him would involve a lot of work and consideration. If I weren't so attached to him already, I'd probably just take him back to Port Lavaca the next time I go. May end up doing that any way. If they are that much trouble, it doesn't seem right to give him to an LFS and then having him end up with someone who's not prepared for what they are getting. I have thought of one other question. When I got my live rock, the stores each gave me a styrofoam container to carry it home. I noticed someone carrying one of these containers into an LFS. Are these loaners that I should return to the stores? Is it considered polite to return them? Or was the guy I saw probably bringing it with him to take something home in? Some of these cultural questions are very murky to me, but I want to be a good member of the marine aquarium community, as well as a good aquarist. ej Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishypets Posted May 8, 2006 Share Posted May 8, 2006 Sounds like you are of to a great tank! I do have a few questions though. Where are you getting your salt water for the tank and do you know if you are using RO/DI water? Is the "hairy" stuff green? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammondegge Posted May 8, 2006 Share Posted May 8, 2006 laughing11.gif laughing9.gif sad3.gif Michael? Michael is the author of the book. i'm Robert. and EJ it sounds like you are off to a really great start. someone as considerate as yourself is sure to be successful. i have never even thought of returning containers, but that surely wouuld be a better way of recycling them. your crab may make a great pet. might as well see if he is a PITA first, before the long ride back home robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishypets Posted May 8, 2006 Share Posted May 8, 2006 Hi, Michael,ej Funny I just saw that and BTW my name is Steve Tyree. happy2.gif Just kidding my name is Clint. Can't wait to see you at the meeting this Sat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thedude Posted May 8, 2006 Share Posted May 8, 2006 We always love to recycle styrofoam containers as they can be reused time and time again, anytime you purchase something new. It's is very polite to bring one back in but we'll never mention it if you don't. That's a GREAT questions and as Robert said, your quest for knowledge and patience in yet again refreshing. These should give you success in the marine aquarist hobby in the future for sure! John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejaustin Posted May 8, 2006 Author Share Posted May 8, 2006 Sorry for getting your name wrong, Robert. I'm not good at names as a general rule. This will probably be the one time I remember a name and you'll be Michael forever. lol. At this point, I'm just using tap water, adding some Stress Coat and salt water mix (don't remember the brand off-hand and I'm too lazy to walk in to the other room right now), and letting the mix sit a day or two. I have been reading about RO filters and, although they all promise to be easy to install, I'm not sure whether this would be a problem to my apartment manager. Probably not unless there was a leak or something. Are filters with more stages better? Is the de-ionization necessary (again, given my set-up and goals)? The hairy stuff is pretty much colorless. Whitish but not a brilliant white, if you know what I mean. Currently, it's about twice as long as peach fuzz. Some of them are developing a branch or two at the ends. I'm also seeing some light pinkish/purplish patches on the oldest live rock (which had none to begin with), so I take that as a good sign. Another new question... what's the best way to move Joey (the damselfish)? I'm assuming I should catch him with a net, put him in a biggish bag, acclimate him to the new tank and then net him and put him in the new tank, but I'm learning that some of my assumptions are not appropriate for marine aquaria. If the water conditions stay stable throughout the week, I may consider moving him to the bigger tank next weekend. If not, well, against all odds, the 2 critters seem to be getting on well in the tiny tank and there's no hurry unless things start going south. They do seem to be having one area of conflict. Joey dug a little pit in the sand below the filter where he hangs out most of the time. Before he molted, PJ (the crab) never bothered it. Now, though, it looks like Joey keeps digging it and PJ keeps filling it in again. No signs of actual fighting at this point, but I am keeping an eye on things. If necessary, I'll pull PJ out and put him in the bucket with emergency water in it for a few days. Anyway, I'll looking forward to meeting everyone in a few days. ej Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GKarshens Posted May 8, 2006 Share Posted May 8, 2006 Hi and welcome to the hobby! You are asking some great questions. The reason for using RO/DI water is it removes any metals or other nasty stuff that is in our tap water so you don't have algea or diatom outbreaks. You can buy it from some fish stores or even using the water out of the machines in front of the grocery store is better than tap water. As to moving your fish. If you get the water parameters the same (ie. Salinity, temp, ph) it should be an easy switch. On good way to acclimate is to put him in a container with water from the old tank. Then use some airline with a knot in it so that when you stert a syphon it only drips water instead of runs to syphon water fom the new tank into the container. Let that go on for about an hour. That way he gradually becomes used to the water in the new tank. I'll leave the ID on the fuzz to some of the experts. Keep up the good work! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishypets Posted May 8, 2006 Share Posted May 8, 2006 Yep I would say start using ro/di water both for your water changes and your top off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammondegge Posted May 8, 2006 Share Posted May 8, 2006 i just noticed that one of our site sponsors. www.auto-topoff.com sells LED moonlights. very reasonably priced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejaustin Posted May 9, 2006 Author Share Posted May 9, 2006 Okay, I'm convinced I need to move to RO/DI water. I've also decided that I'm not going to mess with installing one in the apartment. (I'm hoping that when I move, it will be into a place I'll own instead of renting, and that I'll live in that place for many years to come.) OTOH, I don't want to give the critters too big a shock when I move them to the bigger tank. I know the drip-acclimation will help, but I still have a little concern. My impression from my reading is that all changes should be done gradually, when possible. So now I'm thinking maybe something along the lines of doing about 25% water change to RO/DI water before I move them. Giving them a couple weeks to settle into the new place, and then doing like 10-20% water changes weekly after that for like 8 or 10 weeks. That should get us pretty close to 100% RO water. (I haven't actually done the calculation. It's late and I'm tired.) OTOOH, though, if I take that approach, it will be quite a while before I can really consider snails and that sort of thing, in the event that algae gets out of hand. (At least, my understanding is the inverts tend to require better water than my damsel and my crab.) Decisions, decisions, decisions... Comments? ej Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GKarshens Posted May 9, 2006 Share Posted May 9, 2006 Although the water changes that often I wouldn't consider necessary, they couldn't hurt. By doing the drip you are basically doing the same thing the fish store does when they get them in, and what you do when you bring them home. Just make sure your new tank is cycled before moving them over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thedude Posted May 9, 2006 Share Posted May 9, 2006 I'm going to be real honest.... When I get fish into the LFS, they go through at least an hour rip with an ammonia neutralizer because the PH in the bags has dropped and they are filled with ammonia. When I get fish from the LFS and drop them into my tank, I do a temperature acclimation then dump them in a net and put them in. The difference is salinity doesn't seem to be an issue in the slightest. Inverts are acclimated even more loosely and I've never had a problem. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammondegge Posted May 9, 2006 Share Posted May 9, 2006 how do you acclimate corals john? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GKarshens Posted May 9, 2006 Share Posted May 9, 2006 I am surprised! I thought inverts needed even more acclimation. Also, I've read that going up in salinity is harder on fish than going down. Since you guys keep them at 1.19 or 1.22 I have always dripped for at least an hour to get up to 1.25. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thedude Posted May 9, 2006 Share Posted May 9, 2006 Yeah my salinity is right at 1.026 and haven't had a problem so I don't know what that's about. As for corals, I don't acclimate as much as I dip. Every coral going into my tank gets a strong strong lugol's dip in 1/2 bag water, 1/2 tank water. I let it sit there for around 30 minutes and when I say strong, I mean the water has a strong yellow color. I then take the coral and turkey baste it to make sure that anything creepy falls off. Also depending on where I get an SPS from, I'll interceptor dip it. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishypets Posted May 10, 2006 Share Posted May 10, 2006 I have a saying with diping corals..........EVERY CORAL EVERY TIME..EVERY CORAL EVERY TIME..every coral every time??? YES EVERY CORAL EVERY TIME!!!! This method has saved me many time from redbug and other nasties I don't want in my tank. I recommend this method to anyone keeping sps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejaustin Posted May 10, 2006 Author Share Posted May 10, 2006 Okay, there's definitely something going on with the live rock, especially the flat one I put in on Saturday. Let's see if I can put an image in here. The colors on the photos didn't come out great. The dark part has a dark bluish tint near the center. Downward shot: Shot from the top: Is whatever this is good, bad, or indifferent? (In case the pics don't come through, they are at http://family.technicalsanity.com/gallery/Aquaria All the rocks are showing patches of reddish-purple (and where they already existed, they are getting bigger), so it looks like the coralline algae is making progress. ej Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishypets Posted May 10, 2006 Share Posted May 10, 2006 Sounds like your "seed" rock is doing its job. Look forward to some progress pics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejaustin Posted May 11, 2006 Author Share Posted May 11, 2006 Okay, I think it's time to move the guys. When I came home today, the filter in the tiny tank had slipped down again. I don't know if PJ (the crab) had been climbing on it or not. I do know that Joey (the fish) likes to hide under the filter and the tank is so small there's really no place else he can hide. And he clearly becomes upset. He breathes faster than usual and he sort of wanders around the tank like a trauma survivor. Once I move the filter back up, he gets back in his happy place. After several minutes, he calms down. I know moving to the new place will be stressful for him, too, but it has a lot more places to hide (to say nothing of more running room), so I think he'll be calmer there. I checked the water and everything is looking good. The SeaChem ammonia monitor says it's 0. The test kit I have says it's less than 0.5 ppm and maybe it's 0 (I don't really like color scales). Nitrite is 0. Nitrate is about 20 (again, maybe less), pH is 8.2 or 8.3, alkalinity is 300+. Plus, today one of the live rocks has developed some green. Algae, I'm assuming. There's not a lot of it, but I don't want it to get out of hand either. (Although I'm not sure I've decided who I should get to eat green algae!) Okay, I'm trying to calm down and be rational here. Joey was clearly distressed and it's contagious for me. The filter has only slid down once before and if I waited until this weekend to move them (as I had planned), it would probably be fine. I don't want to move them too soon, but I hate to keep them in that little space any longer than necessary. So many factors to weigh! ej Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GKarshens Posted May 11, 2006 Share Posted May 11, 2006 Your parameters look good. What about temp.? Do you need or have a heater? If your temp is stable I say go ahead and do the switch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejaustin Posted May 11, 2006 Author Share Posted May 11, 2006 Okay, I had nearly decided that I just needed to wait until the weekend to move the guys to the bigger tank. Then I went out and noticed that PJ was on top of one of the empty shells, under the filter. I had spent an hour or two reading about aggressive crabs snatching fish when they can. I know that PJ is a species that can be aggressive. I know the PJ seems to be behaving more aggressively since he molted. I know that under the filter is really the only hidey hole in the tiny tank. I was concerned that Joey might be within reach, so I decided to get him moved so I wouldn't have to worry. This morning, Joey is in the bigger tank. He's swimming back and forth and up and down and I think I might have heard him say, "Wheeeee!" once or twice. blob7.gif His color has returned to its usual non-stressed appearance. His breathing is easy and not too fast. He didn't eat much this morning, but I think that's because he's too busy exploring and enjoying having more room. I've decided there's no hurry making a decision about moving PJ, so he's still in the small tank for the time being. I'm thinking he will probably stay in his own tank because having him in the main tank seems to limit my choices considerably and would always be risky to whatever other stock I put in there. Anyway, the move seems to have been successfuly and I am *so* relieved. ej Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammondegge Posted May 11, 2006 Share Posted May 11, 2006 you're sooo hooked blob7.gif love10.gif laughing9.gif it's good to have company robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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