Return pumps

[chrisfowler99]

I currently run an Eheim 1262 on my 75g. My original plan was to simply move it over to my new setup, but, as I'll be running both setups simultaneously I will need another pump on the new system to get going.

Initial thought was to just grab another Eheim 1262...and I still might. But before I do, what are some other thoughts?

The new setup will be 180-220 gallons in the main tank and probably 70+ in the sump (guestimating right now). I will have a split return and do not plan to power anything else off of the return, though it is possible...

First, internal or external?

I like the idea of external because it takes up no room in the sump and adds less heat to the overall setup. But...

External also results in the use of more bulkheads and seems like it would be more prone to leaking. It's also, it seems, more expensive.

As far as external brands go, it seems like a lot of people really like Reeflo, but the more I research the more I find problems with leaking and having to change out the seals way too often.

I figure the first question someone's going to want to ask is: "How many GPH do you want to run through the system." Answer: "Um...I don't know...enough?" I really don't plan on doing super high volume through the sump, but I do plan to have the returns be a part of the flow of the tank.

I plan on having a chiller setup with this tank, which I (hopefully) won't need much, but, given a strong enough return pump, I could divert some of the flow through the chiller rather than having a separate pump for that. I will also likely split off part of the return to the refugium.

Let the vast array of disagreeing opinions commence!

[pbnj]

Personally, I would just buy a used internal pump to get the new tank cycling. If you're taking down your current tank after this new one is set-up, just sell the pump you don't want or keep it as a back-up.

I don't see the need/benefit of an external pump on a typical "tank-with-sump-underneath" system. Maybe if your moving water between a sump and a refugium or if you have to move water between remote locations. With internal pumps, the heat from the pump is really a minor issue, regardless of the brand.

The kind of protein skimmer you'll be running should also affect your return pump selection. With an internal, non-recirculating skimmer, you only need about 600gph going through the sump. That will maximize the efficiency of the skimmer.

If you're using a recirculating skimmer, you can go higher, but your return pump should not be the main source of waterflow within the display tank.

[pbnj]

...by the way, I have a 600gph overflow box on my 75g tank and 29g sump and I use a Mag18 return pump, but only because it goes to my 1/3hp chiller before returning to the display tank.

[Mike M.]

There is no right answer on this one. I used to used internal pumps for my 120, but I grew tired of the noise those very dependable and easily serviced Mag Pumps (Mag 18) delivered. Can't say enough good things about Mag pumps. The eHeims may not be enough flow for a 180 gallon rig, that's why I mentioned the mag.

Currently, I am plumbed with an external Poseidon pump. Yes, they add heat to the water, but so do internal pumps. It is a SUPER QUIET pump and has run without a hiccup since January. I like it and it generates pretty good head pressure for running to my remote chiller location outside my condo. If your pumps are going to be in a place where noise isn't an issue, the Reeflo's will be a great choice. That being said, either route will work well.

[chrisfowler99]

...by the way, I have a 600gph overflow box on my 75g tank and 29g sump and I use a Mag18 return pump, but only because it goes to my 1/3hp chiller before returning to the display tank.

I used to have a Mag 9 as the return on my 75g...moving to the Eheim dropped my temp 2 degrees. That's why I have some concern about heat.

A temp pump until I can take the Eheim off of the current tank isn't a bad idea. I really could just run with one of my old Mag 9s for now...just to keep it circulating while it cycles.

[chrisfowler99]

There is no right answer on this one. I used to used internal pumps for my 120, but I grew tired of the noise those very dependable and easily serviced Mag Pumps (Mag 18) delivered. Can't say enough good things about Mag pumps. The eHeims may not be enough flow for a 180 gallon rig, that's why I mentioned the mag.

Currently, I am plumbed with an external Poseidon pump. Yes, they add heat to the water, but so do internal pumps. It is a SUPER QUIET pump and has run without a hiccup since January. I like it and it generates pretty good head pressure for running to my remote chiller location outside my condo. If your pumps are going to be in a place where noise isn't an issue, the Reeflo's will be a great choice. That being said, either route will work well.

I don't need absolute silence, but I definitely don't want a noisy pump. The Mag 9 I used to run was too noisy. I definitely won't go the Mag route again.

The Eheim is nice and quiet, but I am somewhat concerned about the amount of flow. I'll be running with about 6' of head. That will knock the Eheim down to around 400-650 gph, depending on the chart...

[pbnj]

There is no right answer on this one.

+1.

As with most things in this hobby, it comes down to personal preference.

[chrisfowler99]

There is no right answer on this one.

+1.

As with most things in this hobby, it comes down to personal preference.

I agree. Just want to hear other personal preferences, and then I can research based on that data.

[chrisfowler99]

The Poseidon sounds interesting. I really like the price...the added temp bothers me a little. Sounds like it's one of the warmest pumps in that range. But I think I will have room to work with with a chiller on the system. With my Eheim I know that the heater still has to come on at night.

[Gonzobob]

As others have said it boils down to your preference. I will say that I have and use both Mag 9s and Ehiem 1262s and prefer the latter for strictly noise concerns.

[Mike M.]

Added temp...yes. It's a yes but...All internal pumps add heat. The big Mag pumps you'd need for a 180 will add a ton of heat. THey are water cooled just like a Poseidon. The only way around adding heat with the pump is through an air cooled external pump and then...Whammo...LOUD PUMP!

You had mentioned that you are going to have a chiller. If so, then the heat issue is a nonissue. Maybe your chiller would cycle one more time per day than it would with air cooled pumps. Pick your poison. Noise or quiet with some heat that MIGHT make for one more chiller cycle.

My current setup with the Posiedon pump cycles the chiller 2 x per day all months but August where we have been at 100 degrees. I have had a third, 30 minute, chiller cycle during this month that relates only to outside temp and the fact that some of my plumbing is outside the condo. The normal two cycles relate to when the MH lights are on. Chiller does not come on otherwise which leads me to believe that there is enough cooling even though the pump adds heat.

So really, the HOT factor of the Poseidons is not a factor. Search it on Reef Central though, and that is all the users say about it...quiet, but adds a ton of heat. Based on my experience, I don't believe it to be a deal. No additional electricity consumption by the chiller directly attributable to using the water cooled external pump. Make sense? It is whisper quiet though. ALmost can't tell its on.

[chrisfowler99]

Added temp...yes. It's a yes but...All internal pumps add heat. The big Mag pumps you'd need for a 180 will add a ton of heat. THey are water cooled just like a Poseidon. The only way around adding heat with the pump is through an air cooled external pump and then...Whammo...LOUD PUMP!

You had mentioned that you are going to have a chiller. If so, then the heat issue is a nonissue. Maybe your chiller would cycle one more time per day than it would with air cooled pumps. Pick your poison. Noise or quiet with some heat that MIGHT make for one more chiller cycle.

My current setup with the Posiedon pump cycles the chiller 2 x per day all months but August where we have been at 100 degrees. I have had a third, 30 minute, chiller cycle during this month that relates only to outside temp and the fact that some of my plumbing is outside the condo. The normal two cycles relate to when the MH lights are on. Chiller does not come on otherwise which leads me to believe that there is enough cooling even though the pump adds heat.

So really, the HOT factor of the Poseidons is not a factor. Search it on Reef Central though, and that is all the users say about it...quiet, but adds a ton of heat. Based on my experience, I don't believe it to be a deal. No additional electricity consumption by the chiller directly attributable to using the water cooled external pump. Make sense? It is whisper quiet though. ALmost can't tell its on.

And half the price of the Reeflo.

Is your Poseidon feeding your return and your chiller? If so, I assume you running the water through the chiller at all times, whether the chiller is on or off?

[Mike M.]

correct. The chiller is inline and has a controller inline that monitors temp. Gets a little warm, chiller comes on. Cools off. CHiller off. Flow to display all goes through the chiller. With on 6 feet of head pressure, you could easily run the tank with 1 Poseidon T3. I am no longer a fan of mulitple return pumps. That'll stir everybody up, but I just don't like maintaining multiple pumps. The T3 I'm using is dependable enough that the worst thing that could happen is that is siezes up and I come home to a full sump. No big deal. Tunze's in the disply will keep the circulation going. Temp monitor will shut the whole thing down if the temp rises to 82. No worries!

[chrisfowler99]

ah...you don't even split your flow. 100% through the chiller?

[Mike M.]

Nope. no splitting. When it does come on, I want all flow to the tank enjoying the cool coils of the JBJ.

[chrisfowler99]

How far is your run to the chiller? And what size plumbing runs through it?

[Mike M.]

I run 1" pvc hard and spaflex and it is a 20 foot round trip out to the chiller and back to the display. It calculates out to about 13' of head pressure.

[chrisfowler99]

That's similar to the distance I'd have to run if I put my chiller in the garage. Closer to 30' for me...now trying to think how I can integrate the chiller into my water change pluming to allow the chiller to be in the garage but still only have two lines running between the tank and the garage.

[Mike M.]

With that long a run, you will need to carefully calculate head loss and may need to consider 1 1/4" lines. There is a head loss cacluator at Reef Central. These Poseidon pumps are good to I think something like 15' head loss. This is not an impossible deal for you, but you need to put pen to paper on this one if it is that far to your chiller location. I hate this aspect of fitting a reef tank into a home. Should we all not build our homes around our reef tanks? (Credit Mark M. for that line)

[chrisfowler99]

Even if I ran 1 1/4" lines, the lines through the chiller are 1"...so it would choke it down some...

Such fun things to have to figure out. LOL

[chrisfowler99]

Hmm...

If I run through the calculator with the Velocity T3 (supposed to be the same as the Poseidon PS3, which isn't in the drop-down) I get:

Total losses are 9.57 feet of head pressure, or 4.14 PSI. with a flow rate of 651 GPH.

If I run through the calculator with the Velocity T4 (Poseidon PS4) I get:

Total losses are 12.71 feet of head pressure, or 5.49 PSI. with a flow rate of 912 GPH.

This is calculated on a 1" pipe at 30' horizontal, 6' vertical, 2 ball valves, 2 90s and four 45s...

Not sure what the head-loss contribution of the chiller would be...

More and more to think about...

[Mike M.]

Your head loss calculations look good. SOunds like you are set with a T4.

[offroadodge]

So i guess that ill give u my senario...I have (2) return pumps, a MAG9 and MAG12. The MAG12 is wide open to the chiller about 2 1/2 feet, then outta the chiller to the tank about 6 feet (there is about 5 feet of total height) before it enters the DT. The MAG9 is basiclly a straight shot up outta the sump to the DT (at 5 feet of height) and is turned down 1/2 way. My tank has run this away for over a year with no problems. I have thought about running 1 pump to the chiller and making the return line in the overflow box another drain, therefore increasing the turn over rate as long as i could push enough water threw the chiller to make the flow correct, im just not convensed that i could get enough flow threw the chiller at 1" to compensate for the 2 drains into the sump. My chiller comes on probably 4 times for 30min each while the 2-400Wrs are off, when they turn on its KATIE bar the door...The chiller runs the whole time they are on (partially because i have a completely closed canopy) Thats a whole nother story. my MAG pumps honestly dont get that hot i think, but they are in-sump so i realy dont know. Maybe this will help a bit... ALSO on RC i tried the calculator but there is NO calculate button, am i not seeing it correctly?

[chrisfowler99]

So i guess that ill give u my senario...I have (2) return pumps, a MAG9 and MAG12. The MAG12 is wide open to the chiller about 2 1/2 feet, then outta the chiller to the tank about 6 feet (there is about 5 feet of total height) before it enters the DT. The MAG9 is basiclly a straight shot up outta the sump to the DT (at 5 feet of height) and is turned down 1/2 way. My tank has run this away for over a year with no problems. I have thought about running 1 pump to the chiller and making the return line in the overflow box another drain, therefore increasing the turn over rate as long as i could push enough water threw the chiller to make the flow correct, im just not convensed that i could get enough flow threw the chiller at 1" to compensate for the 2 drains into the sump. My chiller comes on probably 4 times for 30min each while the 2-400Wrs are off, when they turn on its KATIE bar the door...The chiller runs the whole time they are on (partially because i have a completely closed canopy) Thats a whole nother story. my MAG pumps honestly dont get that hot i think, but they are in-sump so i realy dont know. Maybe this will help a bit...

According to the calculator on your Mag 12, with 5 feet of vertical and 5 feet of horizontal and 1" pipes you're getting:

Total losses are 6.82 feet of head pressure, or 2.95 PSI. with a flow rate of 891 GPH.

That's not accounting for any 90s, ball valves, etc. in-line, nor any head-loss in the chiller. So it depends on what kind of flow you're looking for...

The Mag12 running with only 5 feet of vertical head is:

Total losses are 6.36 feet of head pressure, or 2.75 PSI. with a flow rate of 928 GPH.

for comparison...

(the calculator is here, if you haven't seen it: http://www.reefcentr...m/calc/hlc2.php)

[offroadodge]

i got i finally, just did google search for it and i got the page that had the submit button on the bottom, shows that i havflow of 656GPH with the MAG12 and 684GPH on MAG9 wide open so half that 342GPH for a total of 998GPH on both my pumps. Think thats enough for a 120G DT and 40G sump with about 22G of water?