Water Question

[dweyant]

I'm in the process of setting up a 75 gallon tank.

Currently I have about 100 pounds of live rock and a snail (hitchiker) in the tank. After a couple false starts I "think" I have everything up and runing (got the tank drilled, got the sump up and runing) except the Skimmer (pump should be here Thursday).

When I made up my saltwater I used regular tap water (didn't know any better). So my question is, how bad is that, and should/can I do anything to correct it? I was thinking maybe I should do about a 20% water change this weekend after I can get some pre-mixed SW from a LFS?

Thoughts?

-Dan

[PeeperKeeper]

Honestly, I think I would change it. I think tap water usually has a lot of phosphates in it, which can cause major headaches with algae. You'll probably have a diatom bloom (brown scum) either way, but it will be much worse with tap. It might not be a problem for you at all, but then again, it might kick off so many problems that you get a really rocky start with your new tank.

[dweyant]

Honestly, I think I would change it. I think tap water usually has a lot of phosphates in it, which can cause major headaches with algae. You'll probably have a diatom bloom (brown scum) either way, but it will be much worse with tap. It might not be a problem for you at all, but then again, it might kick off so many problems that you get a really rocky start with your new tank.

What would you suggest?

A few water changes? I have 9 gallons of RO/DI water, and three of SW right now. I won't have a chance to get to a LFS again until Saturday.

I could do a 12 gallon water change tonight, and another 15 on Saturday?

-Dan

[innate1]

I'd drain it all and get 75 gals of saltwater from RCA no use starting out with problems.

[PeeperKeeper]

Yeah, I was thinking you should drain it all and do a 100% change. If you do a bunch of 20% changes, you still don't get everything out.

I know, what a pain. But better than the pain of dealing with rampant algae, etc. I think RCA stays open pretty late, so maybe you could get by there after work.

The other reason to do it is that some of those chemicals will leech into the rock and then slowly leech back out again, making it really hard to get rid of.

[+mcallahan]

I started my tank with only tap water and don't have any long term issues.

Yes, I had a diatom bloom, but that's common for any new tank and not a bad thing.

From now on, I'd use only RO/DI water. You'll get the "bad" tap water out as you should be doing regular water changes. Right now the tank is too young to really see an impact of using tap water. You're nitrates and phosphates are going to be high anyway - its part of the cycle.

The only thing I'd say is I hope you used de-chlorinator!

[+KeeperOfTheZoo]

As someone battling a nutrient build up problem due to neglect and the use of tap water by my tanks previous owner (see the phosphate battle thread a little while back to see where tap water use will lead you)... I think I can say with assurance despite being new to this hobby myself that you should probably just drain the tank. Before doing it you could run water parameter tests and see where you are at. If you are getting readable phosphates, ammonia or nitrates out of your tap water then it's bad.

I'll second getting water from RCA. I really, really like Jake and the rest of the crew there. Check and see what SG they sell their saltwater at. I know when I looked at Aquatek their SG was lower than what I would want to keep a tank at (.021 or .022, something like that but don't quote me on it). I shoot for a SG of .025-.026. Natural seawater is .026, I don't think you can go too wrong trying to mimic nature and the general consensus seems to be to keep it around there. RCA gives a little discount if you buy your water 5g at a time. I use the 5g water bottles from WalMart and it's $1 per bottle per fill up. Best deal I've found. These are the blue bottles with twist on lids, not the 5g buckets. The 5g buckets don't really hold 5g worth of water. Sad that I know these things....

It very well may be easier the first time around to just buy saltwater and then mix in a little more salt at home if you need to up the SG.

Since I don't have an RO/DI unit of my own yet <hence buying water> I've been buying fresh DI water then mixing saltwater as I need it in a big trashcan. This allows me plenty of fresh water for tops offs and I can mix saltwater when I'm ready to do a water change.

If you haven't found it yet, I really like all the FAQs at www.wetwebmedia.com. There's so much info there it's overwhelming but I've saved myself a few headaches aleady by researching there before doing something.

Good luck! Where you warned that this is an amazingly addictive hobby?

Liz

[+dapettit]

Have you checked your parameters? Just curious what your water is telling you. . .

Dave-

[dweyant]

Have you checked your parameters? Just curious what your water is telling you. . .

Dave-

Good questions. I tested last night, and everything was in acceptable range, but the Nitrites are starting to rise (think I have that correct).

I'll check again this evening and post actual numbers.

-Dan

[Rgwiz11]

Honestly, for starting your tank out, I don't think tap water is bad so long as you dechlorinate it. As mcallahan said you may get a diatom bloom, but you may get a diatom bloom using RO/DI water or a premade saltwater mix. As long as you top off with RO/DI and stay away from tap during that whole process you should be fine. I filled my 75g with tap, and have been using RO/DI since, with no ill effects other than a small diatom bloom during the cycling.

Edited January 19, 2010 by Rgwiz11

[dweyant]

Have you checked your parameters? Just curious what your water is telling you. . .

Dave-

PH 8.4 (That is a bit high, right? should I do something to correct it?)

Ammonia .25

No3 20

No2 .5

Salinity 1.027

-Dan

[+dapettit]

How olong has the tank been running. I wondering if it's cycled.

Dave-

Here is a chart I use:

[dweyant]

How olong has the tank been running. I wondering if it's cycled.

Dave-

Brand new tank, I think it is just starting to cycle. It has only been setup since Saturday.

-Dan

[dweyant]

How olong has the tank been running. I wondering if it's cycled.

Dave-

Here is a chart I use:

Hmm, looks like my salt is a bit high. How/should I go about lowering it?

-Dan

[+mcallahan]

yep, tank is cycling.

Just lower your salinity with your regular water changes. Just make your next couple of batches 1.022, etc. For now its not a big deal.

[+dapettit]

What until it has cycled before introducing any livestock. Should take if I remember 3-4 weeks. Be patient and go slooooow.

Dave-

[Derek]

This chart brings up questions that I get lots of different answers on...

1. What are your average Nitrates? (Really, be honest.)

2. How high is too high when it comes to Nitrates?

3. What are the signs of corals, invertebrates, and fish when Nitrates are too high?

[offroadodge]

defntly cycling, i wouldnt add anything till the Ammonia goes to "0".

[barderer]

Using tap water is a problem because of the build of phosphates over time. Just start using RO/DI from now on and you will be fine.

[subsea]

Zara gave you some good advice.

I think I'll play Devils Advocate, since I have been doing marine tanks for 40 years. Phosphate are going to get into your tank no matter what you do. It comes in with the water but mostly comes in with the food. Since I feed heavily, I do not worry about what comes in with the water. It is all about balance and dynamic equilibrium. The reason there are so many opinions is because more than one way works. The balance that I speak about is nutriant export and nutriant recycling. Macro that is removed from the tank is nutriant export. Macro that is eaten by the fish is nutriant recycling. Ammonio and nitrate are removed by bacteria in an areobic process of oxidation chemisty. They are also uptaken by plant material. The bacteria and plants are nutriant recycling and they in turn produce food for fish and corals. Protein skimming mechanically removes ammonia and many other things (that I consider good) from the water. In the reduced oxygan areas of DSB and live rock a different bacteria performs reduction chemisty on nitrate molecules. As a rule, bacteria do not consume phosphate. There have been scientific papers which show a corollary between stress in microbes and phosphate uptake. For this discussion, bacteria do not consume phosphate. How is phosphate removed. According to the EPA "Dillution is the solution to pollution", thus the partial water change. Since I have operated 1000 gallon systems, I found this solution expensive and inefficiant. Often, when phosphates are high in the water column, they precipitate out as calcium phosphate on our arrogonite sand and can not be measured until they dissolve again. Phosphate removing resins target only phosphate, I like phosphate removal using plant mass. Because macros uptake nitrogen, phosphate and iron, sometimes one of these molecules limit the growth of the plants. I dose with iron to keep the plants growing. I use water straight out of the Trinity Aquifier for reef aquariums and lawn irrigation. It is high in calcium, magnesium and sulphur.

I use more than one method to control nitrates and phosphates. Deep sand beds and algae filter are the backbone of natural reefkeeping. Phosphate resins and carbon use are mandatory for me because I do not use protein skimmers.

Patrick

[+Hydro]

About the tap water, I bought a reef tank from a guy that had it setup for a couple of years that looked healthy. He told me that he has always used tap water for his water changes, and this was San Antonio tap water which I personally wouldn't even drink. I woudn't recommend that but I don't think that one time will hurt anything.

Very informative Patrick. If I were to stop using my protein skimmer what ill effects would I have? There is plenty of water compared to fish (30" of fish 300 gallons of water), I do 10% water changes on a weekly basis, I'm also using a phospate reactor and a large refugium. If I understood correctly you said that skimming removed "good things", what are these good things and how would they benefit out tanks?

Why not recommend a phosphate reactor for this new tank...in fact why not recommend for everyone? I didn't add one for a long time b/c when I heard "reactor" I assumed that it would be very expensive but that wasn't the case, it cost more for the media than the reactor.

Derek, about nitrates. Mine are at 0 and have been since my tank cycled, but I think that this is because of the amount of tank water and filtration compared to fish. A freind of mine has several fish in a 90 gallon and he can't seem to get his nitrates under 10, he has a skimmer but no refugium. From my previous research online I concluded that anything under 10 is acceptable for reef tanks but there are certainly tanks that survice with higher nitrates than that. I do not know at what level you will see detrimental effects.