Acropora dying, out of nowhere, and quickly. What is going on?

[mhart032]

Tim with that being said, is the algae scrubber to efficient? would say something as easy as dumping the skimmer cup back into the system help uptick in the P04 and No2 quicker than dosing, as well as feed the bacteria to combat the weekend immune system? If it is deficient in those areas?  Would you think if it were that low that some sort of Dinos would be present? 

[eddius-maximus]

The algae scrubber was pulled a while ago but even still I don't think this event can be attributed to its addition. It was running on my previous system with great success.

And I'm not assuming corals that appear unaffected haven't been impacted. I'm anticipating a complete 100% acropora loss at this point.

My nitrates are 5, phosphate 0.03, checked this morning. Whatever path I'm on, there seems to be no straying from it. The universal decline in my tank is rapid and, as of this morning, still continuing. The damage has been done and there doesn't seem to be any reversing it. 

I've come to peace with it and I'm not really angry. Moreso genuinely curious at this point. I'd like for in the future to be able to definitevely say, 'Well I know not to do THAT again.' Except I'm not 100% sure what 'that' is. Marinepure block dropping nitrate too low for a short amount of time? That's a guess and I have no way to verify it. Frustrating.

[jolt]

Sorry Eddius, as you say it seems like it will be a mystery exactly what happened.    I agree with Tim, that a weakened coral will fail at any time if one little thing puts it over the edge.  We can't say how long you were at either high or low nutrients, so trying to theorize is just a crap shoot.  At this point I would go with water changes and testing/adjusting as needed until things get better.  

[Sascha D.]

On 4/20/2019 at 4:37 PM, jolt said:

You could be right Sascha.  I don't claim to be an expert, but I feel we can't be certain until we see some test results.  If I understand correctly, Eddie added Marine pure, saw a huge decrease in algae growth, and then acros started RTN.  

I don't really understand why people are buying MarinePure; they're basically bioballs. The bacteria shouldn't populate higher than the nutrient level will allow unless you're dosing carbon. I guess it would be beneficial if you are limited on space or want to have minimal aquascape in the display. Juiceman could be right and the MP blocks are leaching something. It would be impossible to test for, but you would see some improvement with water changes. 

[mhart032]

Could always send a ICP into Triton or API. 

[diesel3443]

Since most of the tissue loss is at the tips I am with Jolt on this one. I would also recommend an icp rest like others have recommended to rule anything else out.

Since the nitrates bottomed out quickly, the combination of your alk being 8.5 and your lighting could have all of a sudden shocked the SPS. Nutrients buffer both alk and light intensity, you suddenly took them away, then the issues started to happen.


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[Timfish]

On 4/21/2019 at 10:20 AM, eddius-maximus said:

The algae scrubber was pulled a while ago but even still I don't think this event can be attributed to its addition. It was running on my previous system with great success.

And I'm not assuming corals that appear unaffected haven't been impacted. I'm anticipating a complete 100% acropora loss at this point.

My nitrates are 5, phosphate 0.03, checked this morning. Whatever path I'm on, there seems to be no straying from it. The universal decline in my tank is rapid and, as of this morning, still continuing. The damage has been done and there doesn't seem to be any reversing it. 

I've come to peace with it and I'm not really angry. Moreso genuinely curious at this point. I'd like for in the future to be able to definitevely say, 'Well I know not to do THAT again.' Except I'm not 100% sure what 'that' is. Marinepure block dropping nitrate too low for a short amount of time? That's a guess and I have no way to verify it. Frustrating.

I don't want to sidetrack this thread but Dr. Andreas Haas, who spoke at C4 4 years ago, has clearly shown algae promote pathogenic bacteria to corals via the release of neutral sugars (search "Andreas Haas" and "DCNS" at scholar.google.com for more).  It can also takes many months for corals to fully recover from a stress event.

More to the problem at hand if you currently have PO4 levels of .03 mg/l what may have very well instigated this problem was a phosphate deficiency.  Especially if PO4 levels were lower in the recent past.  Researchers at Southampton Univeristy in England conducted research looking at the effects of various nitrogen and phosphate ratios on corals.  One of the problems (which I found startling) was with not enough phosphate uric acid crystals form in the coral's cells rupturing the cells.   It doesn't strike me as unreasonable this would fascilitate infections which my take out entire colonies with no apparent explanation and the infection could spread to other corals.  Here's links to Southampton's research:

www.indiaenvironmentportal.org.in/files/file/Nutrient enrichment.pdf

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fmars.2015.00103/full

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0025326X17301601?via%3Dihub

I've posted ICP tests of one of my systems in the "Water Chemestry" forum if you want a reference to compare your system too.

[Reefpuck]

12 hours ago, Timfish said:

More to the problem at hand if you currently have PO4 levels of .03 mg/l what may have very well instigated this problem was a phosphate deficiency.  Especially if PO4 levels were lower in the recent past. 

Is .03 mg/l the same thing as .03ppm...such as from a RedSea test kit?

[Timfish]

On 5/1/2019 at 9:21 AM, Reefpuck said:

Is .03 mg/l the same thing as .03ppm...such as from a RedSea test kit?

Sorry to take so long to get answer! :/  Yes, ppm and mg/l is one to one.   With the problems of phosphate deficiency and the issue with high phosphate affecting calcification a suggested target range for PO4  is .05 to .15 mg/l (ppm).  (Obviously I don't adhere to this so feel free to call me hypocritical.)  It varies by species but while raising increases growth rates and weight gain PO4 starts interfering with calcification when levels reach .02 to .04 mg/l.  Coral's clearly can be kept at levels below .03 mg/l but with the reduction in zooxanthellae it impacts their immune system and depending on heterotrophic feeding (which varies significantly at the species level) small changes in temperature, lighting and nitrogen can have serious impacts on their photobiology and physiology.   In simpler terms low phosphate can kill quickly while high phosphate only affects skeletal porosity.

[Reefpuck]

5 hours ago, Timfish said:

Sorry to take so long to get answer! 😕 Yes, ppm and mg/l is one to one.   With the problems of phosphate deficiency and the issue with high phosphate affecting calcification a suggested target range for PO4  is .05 to .15 mg/l (ppm).  (Obviously I don't adhere to this so feel free to call me hypocritical.)  It varies by species but while raising increases growth rates and weight gain PO4 starts interfering with calcification when levels reach .02 to .04 mg/l.  Coral's clearly can be kept at levels below .03 mg/l but with the reduction in zooxanthellae it impacts their immune system and depending on heterotrophic feeding (which varies significantly at the species level) small changes in temperature, lighting and nitrogen can have serious impacts on their photobiology and physiology.   In simpler terms low phosphate can kill quickly while high phosphate only affects skeletal porosity.

Much appreciated! Good information to have. 

[Timfish]

On 4/21/2019 at 10:18 AM, mhart032 said:

Tim with that being said, is the algae scrubber to efficient? would say something as easy as dumping the skimmer cup back into the system help uptick in the P04 and No2 quicker than dosing, as well as feed the bacteria to combat the weekend immune system? If it is deficient in those areas?  Would you think if it were that low that some sort of Dinos would be present? 

Oooops, missed this one too! :-/   It's more than just competing for nutrients.   However, to answer your last question first when I fix systems over run with algae often it's because the nutrients have been stripped out and corals simply cannot compete so there are a variety of nuisance algae species present (See my two threads on nuisance algae remediation).   SImpley removing the algae gradually with small water changes is all I've found necessary to shift the equilibrium of a system to favor corals.   Haas, et al, showed the DOC (Dissolved Organic Carbon) and more specifically the DCNS (Dissolved Combined Neutral Sugars) released by algae promotes heterotrophic microbial processes and pathogenic bacteria on corals.   This research proved a major tenet of Rohwer's DDAM model of reef degradation (see Rohwer's book "Coral Reefs in the Microbial Seas").  What complicates this is release of labile DOC varies widely by species and is moderated by some cryptic sponges which remove the labile DOC about 2000 times faster than bacteria.    Take these processes and throw in all the things we do that screws with and changes the microbial biome  and it doesn't surprise me systems have very frustrating problems that can't be explained with standard explanations.

 

Here's some of the research I've refferenced

https://peerj.com/articles/108/?utm_source=TrendMD&utm_campaign=PeerJ_TrendMD_0&utm_medium=TrendMD

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0027973

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23303369

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28895945

http://www.rug.nl/research/portal/files/14555035/13completethesis.pdf

https://www.nature.com/articles/nmicrobiol201642

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0044859

 

 

[mhart032]

Eddie, by chance can you check your apex logs and see what water temps were during this time?

[eddius-maximus]

No temp swings. 78.5 to 79, controlled by two heaters/Apex. 

Interestingly, my tank is no longer clean. My nitrates are up, as are phosphate. And I tossed in a healthy 'tester' acro frag two weeks ago, long after any spikes or drops associated with MP blocks. This tester frag has received nothing but stability.

Two weeks later and death at the tips. So whatever horrible **** is happening isn't from the MP blocks or drops in nutrients. 

Back to square 1. I've been thinking long and hard as to what could possibly be causing this. So much money, gone.

I bought a huge batch of Tropic Marin Pro when starting this tank - I've still been working my way through it. And I remember the very first time I mixed it, Alk registered as 6.0. I thought this was odd, having to adjust alk/cal/mag up when making new batches. Now I'm wondering if I received a bad batch of Tropic Marin, if that could cause what is happening here. 

[Reefpuck]

I'm guessing most of us never really check the parameters of fresh mixed salt water...at least I never have. Figure it should be perfect...but suppose like anything you might have got a bad batch. Kinda a scary thought.

Hopefully you figure it out soon.

[jolt]

At this point I would probably do a Triton test just to see if something pops up.  I skimmed back through the thread and I see you used two methods to check your alk, so its probably pretty close to what you think it is (which was 8.4 or so on the tank, and 6 or so on the fresh mix).    That seems like a really safe number to me, it's what I strive for.  I am hoping with time, monitoring, and water changes it will resolve itself, but it may never be explainable.  I can give you more tester frags whenever you need them.  And when you feel things are stable we can work on replacing various ones you got from me.

[eddius-maximus]

Thanks, guys. I’m not even mad anymore. Just curious. I’m slowly going through variable by variable.

No stray voltage. Lights are fine. RODI still outputting 0 tds. Nutrients are good. No bad hardware leeching metals. What’s left? Bad batch of salt? Bad batch of ATI Essentials? Those are the last two things I can think of. I’m slowly swapping out my water with Fritz salt as I’ve had great success with it prior to this new tank. 

All in all I’ve lost around 40 acros ranging in size from frag to colony. I’m bracing for more losses. Weirdly all softies and LPS are vibrant and healthy and happy. Who knows.

My wife has been a rockstar. Her stance is, well you love buying corals and now you get to buy more. Keeper. 

[mhart032]

6 hours ago, eddius-maximus said:

Thanks, guys. I’m not even mad anymore. Just curious. I’m slowly going through variable by variable.

No stray voltage. Lights are fine. RODI still outputting 0 tds. Nutrients are good. No bad hardware leeching metals. What’s left? Bad batch of salt? Bad batch of ATI Essentials? Those are the last two things I can think of. I’m slowly swapping out my water with Fritz salt as I’ve had great success with it prior to this new tank. 

All in all I’ve lost around 40 acros ranging in size from frag to colony. I’m bracing for more losses. Weirdly all softies and LPS are vibrant and healthy and happy. Who knows.

My wife has been a rockstar. Her stance is, well you love buying corals and now you get to buy more. Keeper. 

Im curious as well. I guess it prob could be bad batch of salt and or ATI supplements. I've been racking my brain trying to think of anything else it could be. 

 Yes definitely a keeper! 

[mhart032]

23 hours ago, eddius-maximus said:

No temp swings. 78.5 to 79, controlled by two heaters/Apex. 

Interestingly, my tank is no longer clean. My nitrates are up, as are phosphate. And I tossed in a healthy 'tester' acro frag two weeks ago, long after any spikes or drops associated with MP blocks. This tester frag has received nothing but stability.

Two weeks later and death at the tips. So whatever horrible **** is happening isn't from the MP blocks or drops in nutrients. 

Back to square 1. I've been thinking long and hard as to what could possibly be causing this. So much money, gone.

I bought a huge batch of Tropic Marin Pro when starting this tank - I've still been working my way through it. And I remember the very first time I mixed it, Alk registered as 6.0. I thought this was odd, having to adjust alk/cal/mag up when making new batches. Now I'm wondering if I received a bad batch of Tropic Marin, if that could cause what is happening here. 

Your welcome to borrow the alkatronic for a few weeks if you want to rule out any alk swings that might be happening, while i wait on my tank to mature enough for corals. its not hooked up currently. 

[eddius-maximus]

20 minutes ago, mhart032 said:

Your welcome to borrow the alkatronic for a few weeks if you want to rule out any alk swings that might be happening, while i wait on my tank to mature enough for corals. its not hooked up currently. 

All the generosity in this thread is humbling. I appreciate it, you guys. But no worries -- the alk is stable, I've been keeping a close eye on it (manually)

[+BobcatReefer]

On 5/7/2019 at 8:46 AM, eddius-maximus said:

All in all I’ve lost around 40 acros ranging in size from frag to colony. I’m bracing for more losses. Weirdly all softies and LPS are vibrant and healthy and happy. Who knows.

Been following along, as this is exactly how I would describe my last year or so, although I did lose all of my acans in addition to the SPS.  Only SPS I have left are some purple stylos, and they aren't exactly thriving.  My params haven't been quite so rock solid as yours, but pretty stable overall.  Montis gone, milles gone, pocillopora gone, cyphastrea barely hanging on.

[eddius-maximus]

13 minutes ago, BobcatReefer said:

Been following along, as this is exactly how I would describe my last year or so, although I did lose all of my acans in addition to the SPS.  Only SPS I have left are some purple stylos, and they aren't exactly thriving.  My params haven't been quite so rock solid as yours, but pretty stable overall.  Montis gone, milles gone, pocillopora gone, cyphastrea barely hanging on.

Sorry to hear that, what a bummer.

When starting up my 'new' system, I got an instant cycle because all of my old very established live rock and live stock was moved over. I assumed that all the maturity of my old system would carry over to this new system, despite one rock being new as well as new sand.

Maybe that isn't the case. I've ruled everything else out. I've done enough water changes to basically cycle out all old water over the course of a couple months.

So despite moving all my old live rock over, maybe a tank upgrade with new sand and one large new dead dry rock is enough to sort of reset the tank's life. In which case maybe this 'new' system is too young for acropora. 

I'm getting algae blooms now, hair algae, cyano, and what looks like dinos as of two days ago -- algae blooms I'd associate with a new tank, blooms that were taken care of years ago in my old tank prior to moving everything over. It feels like a new tank starting from square 1.

Maybe this could account for acroporas dying. Even now, throwing cheap acros in, they perish. Softies are LPS are 100% healthy and happy. At this point I ruled everything else out. Now I wait for this new era of uglies to dissipate then I'll try again.

I did borrow a UV sterilizer from a buddy. I'm waiiting for a mj1200 to arrive in the mail today and I'll hook it up. I'm not anticipating anything amazing happening but at this point it couldn't hurt.

[Roy V]

On ‎4‎/‎20‎/‎2019 at 9:48 AM, eddius-maximus said:

My glass that I used to have to clean daily was pristine, needing only weekly cleaning. Awesome.

This sentence says it all I believe. I've been keeping sps for several years and have never only needed weekly glass cleanings. While at Reefcurrents last weekend a WWC employee(I can't recall his name) was lecturing about the store, specifically their main sps tank. Someone from the audience asked what was the nitrate level in the sps display and he went on to say every system is different...then he paused and said "if you are not having to clean your glass every day or every other day you are starving your sps. SPS need nutrients to thrive".

Sounds to me it was a drastic change is what did it. If it was gradual perhaps they could have coped with it better. My opinion is to continue to feed regularly, limit water changes, and run skimmer sparingly. 

Good Luck. I'm sure your sps will bounce back.

[eddius-maximus]

10 hours ago, Roy V said:

This sentence says it all I believe.

Two weeks ago I was in total agreement with you. I thought for sure that was the answer.

But I feed heavy and have a huge bioload. I removed my filter socks, removed my algae scrubber, and removed the marinepure blocks, and went back to needing to clean glass daily. Hair algae is starting to pop up.

Brand new tester frags are still dying. 

[Roy V]

Years ago I also had sps dying with STN and couldn’t figure it out. Turns out I had a frag rack that had cracked and exposed the magnets. Who knows how long it had been like that before finally figuring it out.


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[eddius-maximus]

7 hours ago, Roy V said:

Years ago I also had sps dying with STN and couldn’t figure it out. Turns out I had a frag rack that had cracked and exposed the magnets. Who knows how long it had been like that before finally figuring it out.


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This is a big fear for me right now. I've checked and re-checked -- what if I missed something? I added a poly filter which are supposed to change color if metals are present. After a few days, no color. 

I sent out an ICP test today so I'll know more in a week or so.