220 Rimless w/ Mangrove

[Timfish]

Here's a thread to follow the system in this DIY lighting thread I set up with recessed lighting.  System is a 220 and has two 40 gallon sumps running about half full.  One sump is low flow for sponges after Tyree's "Zonal" methodology (See Vol III of Delbeek and Sprung's "Reef Aquarium" or Tyree's CMAT I & II or Zonal books).   The other sump holds the return pumps, a small DIY canister that holds about a cup of GAC and a 25 watt UV sterilizor.    Water changes are ~4% with tap water run through a carbon filter.  

 

Beside having to design, build and install tightly focused remote lighting another unique difference with this setup from others I have done over the years is the system was run with only about an hour of mid morning sunlight for about 6 months before the lights were installed.   Initial stocking during this initial period was challenging as PAR from sunlight was over 400 but of very short duration and varied as daylight changes through the year.  What I found really fascinating was after installing the remote lighting the ecosystem started to cycle all over.  Algae that showed up and disappeared in the first few months reappeared then disappeared.   Hair algae notably was more pronounced and "determined" than I typically see in cycling and maturing a system.   The pictures in the 5th post in my DIY thread with the PAR readings are immediately after lights were installed and show how the tank looked after cycling without lights.

 

Aquascaping was a real exciting challenge.  Taking in the view from the top and stairs and the way light is reflected and refracted pretty much every spot can be seen.   Uniquely a location on the stairs lets viewers see the same area from three different angles.   In addition to the wide range of locations and lighting levels I've also found some animals, Euphillia specifically, did not do well with sunlight, presumably the spectrum as PAR was well within their tolerance.  One of the cool things is having a lot of locations that are only hinted at from the initial top view or from the front it pulls viewers to keep looking closer and at different angles to see what they might be missing.   I don't know how much local limestone I used but I did use about 60 lbs of maricultured live rock from florida and qt it for about 5 weeks first.  Besides being an excellent source for cryptic sponges I also ended up with about half a dozen 1" limpets that do a pretty good job of grazing the rocks.

 

Here's a video from this spring.   It's taken a day after scrubbing hair algae and was about a fourth of the way through it's cycle.

 

A note on Mangroves:   Beside competing with corals for nitrogen and phosphate they also are heavy users of magnesium.  They use magnesium as part of an internal "RO" system to remove the salt from saltwater.    They then excrete the salt from their leaves.  To properly maintain them not only do the need bright light they really need to be spritzed weekly or more often with fresh water.  Besides removing the salt from their leaves they also will absorb some reducing their demand for magnesium.   The addition of a couple mangroves to this system was aesthetics, because of the additional demands on a reef ecosystem I would not use them if the sole reason was filtration. 

 

[Timfish]

Here's a couple videos with the system lit up with just sunlight.   With sunlight getting as high as 500 PAR it was essential the lights not be turned on at the same time. ( I don't know of any corals available for reef tanks that have been acclimated to 900+ PAR.   )

 

 

[FarmerTy]

Have you ever ordered the sponges from Tyree to seed the cryptic sump? I'm thinking about doing that as my sump is dark now and there are a variety of sponges growing in there but I would like to bolster the variety.

I had my Oregon tort acclimated to 750 par but I don't think it would have appreciated 900 par. That's pretty neat about the high par you're able to achieve in that tank with LEDs mounted so far away and with natural sunlight.

[victoly]

I love this tank concept tim. Looks great. 

[Timfish]

Thank you!

 

Tyree's a good source for cryptic sponges especially for individual that used only dry rock to set up a system.  But Ty I would remove your skimmer if you want to make better use of cryptic sponges ability to remove and recycle labile DOC and bacteria.   While it is only the stuff that has hydrophobic qualities it's still food for sponges they convert into nitrogen rich detritus for the food chain.   The advantage of sponges is they remove and recycle both hydrophobic and hydrophylic stuff.  But you still have to do water changes to get rid of the refractory DOC that builds up in systems. 

[Timfish]

Here's a snorkler's perspective:

 

 

[FarmerTy]

Thank you!
 
Tyree's a good source for cryptic sponges especially for individual that used only dry rock to set up a system.  But Ty I would remove your skimmer if you want to make better use of cryptic sponges ability to remove and recycle labile DOC and bacteria.   While it is only the stuff that has hydrophobic qualities it's still food for sponges they convert into nitrogen rich detritus for the food chain.   The advantage of sponges is they remove and recycle both hydrophobic and hydrophylic stuff.  But you still have to do water changes to get rid of the refractory DOC that builds up in systems. 

You and I know skimmers are only 30-40% efficient at best. There's still plenty for the sponges but I understand where you are coming from. My old sump had tons of sponges in spite of a skimmet but it would be nice to introduce some variety in the form of Tyree's pack.

I still maintain my monthly use of ROX carbon, which is beneficial to DOC removal as well. I still aim for no water changes as a maintenance task but have now added a once a year full water change (over the span of a couple weeks) to dilute any potential contaminants that I can't test for and also aid in additional DOC removal.

[Timfish]

On 12/20/2017 at 9:14 AM, FarmerTy said:

You and I know skimmers are only 30-40% efficient at best. There's still plenty for the sponges but I understand where you are coming from. My old sump had tons of sponges in spite of a skimmet but it would be nice to introduce some variety in the form of Tyree's pack.

I still maintain my monthly use of ROX carbon, which is beneficial to DOC removal as well. I still aim for no water changes as a maintenance task but have now added a once a year full water change (over the span of a couple weeks) to dilute any potential contaminants that I can't test for and also aid in additional DOC removal.

Yes, when Feldman ran his tests some skimmers on some test runs did pull out that much.  But what  I also know is when Feldman, et al, did 30 day tests on an actual reef system the average TOC increased by 79%.  Weekly water changes would do a better job of removing it.   

GAC can be useful for removing DOC.  I'm trying it continuously on this system to see if there's noticable differences with my other systems I only use it sporadicly or not at all.  But it's questionable it removes the DOC that promotes bacteria growth.    I have yet to find any research showing it removes the neutral sugars from algae which promote pathogenic bacteria to corals.   

 

It's good to see you're doing water changes and it will be interesting to see how your coral growth is affected with just yearly water changes.  I am curious if you're still trying to maintain the fiction of going 4 years with out a water change?

 

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

I didn't want to hijack Jim D's thrasd but I have some questions about your post and my thread seemed like a good place to bring it up.

 

On 8/1/2017 at 8:07 PM, FarmerTy said:

We go round and round Tim.  Considering my background, I understand colloquial terms versus actual genus names.  Rather than continue to fight it like you have Tim, its just easier for me to just go with the flow regarding common terms.  Otherwise, its just an exercise in beating your head against in the wall in my opinion and it also saves me time when talking with other reefers.

I'm not looking for a debate.  I keep acros (Acropora)... They look very nice in my tank in my opinion.  I'm trying to help another hobbyist who keeps acros as well go with advice I think is more appropriate to his situation. 

You often quote books about natural reefs and data collected from these reefs as backing for your assumptions in the reef aquaria, which in my opinion and just my opinion only, is not always as applicable to saltwater tanks. Both environments are very different in many ways that I don't really feel like we are emulating nature anymore.  My 215-gallon tank is not the ocean, nor do I want it to look like the ocean. I want it to look like this, and to look like this, I keep my phosphates below 0.03 ppm according to my Hanna meter, whether that means there is a great amount of organic phosphate in the water in corrolation, I do not know.  

I don't mean to offend you Tim.  Your expertise on this board is beneficial to many.  I just been running "SPS"-dominant systems for 7 years now and learned a great deal over the years on how to keep beautifully colored acropora colonies, so I aim to share that same knowledge with others and if someone gives advice I see may not be beneficial, I will also add my opinion in hopes to help someone with their goal.  I'm not aiming to slam down anybody else's advice in the process, contributions to the collective knowledge is what makes the hobby great, and what makes ARC great.  There are always so many willing to help.  I'll just agree to disagree on this one.  

 

To start with you were not my target audience.    I was letting the OP know what my opinion is based on my experiences and my understanding of the current science.   I did said much the same thing about helping inexperienced aquarists to Mike 7 years ago when he took over ARC.  Having been in the hobby since '87 and having kept reef systems for decades and learning to focus on sustainability and resilliance I feel I have a unique experience base.

 

What science do I reference that you do not feel applies to keeping reef aquariums?

In your opinion what are my assumptions about reef aquariums you disagree with?

What are the differences you see between our systems and wild reefs?

You say you know "SPS" and "LPS" are just colloqial terms and you're just using them for convenience.  But it's not clear if you accept they do not apply to the husbandry requirements of corals.  Is this still a point we disagree on?

 

 

 

[FarmerTy]

To start with you were not my target audience.    I was letting the OP know what my opinion is based on my experiences and my understanding of the current science.   I did said much the same thing about helping inexperienced aquarists to Mike 7 years ago when he took over ARC.  Having been in the hobby since '87 and having kept reef systems for decades and learning to focus on sustainability and resilliance I feel I have a unique experience base.
 
What science do I reference that you do not feel applies to keeping reef aquariums?
In your opinion what are my assumptions about reef aquariums you disagree with?
What are the differences you see between our systems and wild reefs?
You say you know "SPS" and "LPS" are just colloqial terms and you're just using them for convenience.  But it's not clear if you accept they do not apply to the husbandry requirements of corals.  Is this still a point we disagree on?
 
 
 

No fiction here Tim since I moved in March so no water changes for 4 years would be an impossibility. When in discussion of no water changes, its in reference to methodology for husbandry purposes... Not that no new water ever hits my system. When I go to frag swaps or sell frags, I of course have to replace that water. In fact, my skimmer also removes saltwater and over time I have to replace that water too. I hope that helps clarify for you what I mean by that. And yes, roughly 3 years with the last tank of no major water changes except for once when I overdosed Mg and in the first couple months when it was stabilizing was exactly how it went down.

I'm not interested in an internet discussion on what I assume or what you assume Tim. I'll go have a beer with you and chat any day. That sounds a lot more fun then digging back to what you've said over the years and what you've quoted.

Yes, colloquial terms are for easier use only, and yes, of course that doesn't imply that all that are grouped have the same husbandry standards. That would be absurd and I find it odd you have to wonder if I don't have that basic undestanding of corals, but just in case, yes, all "SPS" don't have the same husbandry requirements.

You definitely do have a unique experience base. That was never the question. I only spoke out with JimD's thread because I don't think your focus is acro dominant tanks. I only base that on the examples of tanks you maintain that you've posted on here as that is all I have to go by and your tank at home. Most are dominated by softies and "LPS" and a few SPS, mainly the easy ones like birdsnest, digis, stags, etc. I shared what I thought was more appropriate advice for the system he was trying to run. If someone wanted to run a naturally filtered system with tap water topoff that was self sustained and not prone to system failure, and maintained by routine water changes, I'd keep quiet and move on. Not my methodology and definitely not my area of expertise. If I try to give an advice in that arena, please do kindly tell me to bug off. [emoji12]

Now going to the good stuff, I think I'm going to order a sponge pack from Tyree. I'm curious if they will spark some variety in the new sump once I swap out the old sump. Thanks for reminding me about the cryptic sumps as his talk during C4 has been ringing in my ear ever since then.

Happy holidays Tim. May we clash methodology-wise for another 10 years on ARC. [emoji23][emoji2][emoji12][emoji4]

[+Dogfish]

Where can I find more info on the sponge packs? I have a few questions, like if they will all grow in low to no light, flow ect.... I'm not planning on lighting my sump. It will be full of dry rock where a normal fuge would go, no sand.  The skimmer will suck water out of the same chamber so should be plenty of food. That chamber is about 24x30. Not planning on using live rock, so at first the system will lack diversity. My old sump was full of sponges. I liked them a lot and purchased a few larger ones for my display.

Thanks in advance

[Timfish]

14 hours ago, FarmerTy said:

 

 

No fiction here Tim since I moved in March so no water changes for 4 years would be an impossibility. When in discussion of no water changes, its in reference to methodology for husbandry purposes... Not that no new water ever hits my system. When I go to frag swaps or sell frags, I of course have to replace that water. In fact, my skimmer also removes saltwater and over time I have to replace that water too. I hope that helps clarify for you what I mean by that. And yes, roughly 3 years with the last tank of no major water changes except for once when I overdosed Mg and in the first couple months when it was stabilizing was exactly how it went down.

I'm not interested in an internet discussion on what I assume or what you assume Tim. I'll go have a beer with you and chat any day. That sounds a lot more fun then digging back to what you've said over the years and what you've quoted.

Yes, colloquial terms are for easier use only, and yes, of course that doesn't imply that all that are grouped have the same husbandry standards. That would be absurd and I find it odd you have to wonder if I don't have that basic undestanding of corals, but just in case, yes, all "SPS" don't have the same husbandry requirements.

You definitely do have a unique experience base. That was never the question. I only spoke out with JimD's thread because I don't think your focus is acro dominant tanks. I only base that on the examples of tanks you maintain that you've posted on here as that is all I have to go by and your tank at home. Most are dominated by softies and "LPS" and a few SPS, mainly the easy ones like birdsnest, digis, stags, etc. I shared what I thought was more appropriate advice for the system he was trying to run. If someone wanted to run a naturally filtered system with tap water topoff that was self sustained and not prone to system failure, and maintained by routine water changes, I'd keep quiet and move on. Not my methodology and definitely not my area of expertise. If I try to give an advice in that arena, please do kindly tell me to bug off.

Now going to the good stuff, I think I'm going to order a sponge pack from Tyree. I'm curious if they will spark some variety in the new sump once I swap out the old sump. Thanks for reminding me about the cryptic sumps as his talk during C4 has been ringing in my ear ever since then.

Happy holidays Tim. May we clash methodology-wise for another 10 years on ARC.

 I would buy you lots of beers of your choice to hear how adding and then removing a 100 gallon tank to your system when you had your AEW infestation 2 years ago doesn't count as a water change.  But I have to think discussing what science does or doesn't apply to our reefs would benefit everyone on a public forum.   But you are quite right, this is the holidays.  And not everyone shares my priorities.  Merry Christmas and Happy New Year Ty And everyone else! 

[Timfish]

1 hour ago, Dogfish said:

Where can I find more info on the sponge packs? I have a few questions, like if they will all grow in low to no light, flow ect.... I'm not planning on lighting my sump. It will be full of dry rock where a normal fuge would go, no sand.  The skimmer will suck water out of the same chamber so should be plenty of food. That chamber is about 24x30. Not planning on using live rock, so at first the system will lack diversity. My old sump was full of sponges. I liked them a lot and purchased a few larger ones for my display.

Thanks in advance

 Tyree has sponges available on his Reeffarmers.com website.  You can also get them in most cases with a good quality maricultured live rock (I've never seen any on aquacultured stuff but I've also never gotten much and it's been a very long time since I did, someone may have more recent info).  If you want to get wild liverock make sure it's transhipped and hasn't been sitting somewhere for weeks.   (LivestockUSA.com has several varieties available but it is pricy)  Always QT live rock like anything else before adding it.   

[FarmerTy]

 I would buy you lots of beers of your choice to hear how adding and then removing a 100 gallon tank to your system when you had your AEW infestation 2 years ago doesn't count as a water change.  But I have to think discussing what science does or doesn't apply to our reefs would benefit everyone on a public forum.   But you are quite right, this is the holidays.  And not everyone shares my priorities.  Merry Christmas and Happy New Year Ty And everyone else!  [emoji2]

 I would buy you lots of beers of your choice to hear how adding and then removing a 100 gallon tank to your system when you had your AEW infestation 2 years ago doesn't count as a water change.  But I have to think discussing what science does or doesn't apply to our reefs would benefit everyone on a public forum.   But you are quite right, this is the holidays.  And not everyone shares my priorities.  Merry Christmas and Happy New Year Ty And everyone else!  [emoji2]

It was a prophylactic dip prior to gluing down my corals to their final locations. I had AEFW in my first large tank, my 125 gallon that preceded the 215 gallon you mentioned. I never saw any evidence in that 215 gallon of AEFW but that does always make me paranoid. I had some random STN on some of my corals in the 215 gallon when I removed all my fish for the 76 day fallow period so I decided it was an opportune time to dip all acros as well and place them in a 100-gallon tub that was filled with roughly 70 gallons. That way I can guarantee parasite free prior to gluing them down permanently. I did find some interesting white pods in the dip water though that were on about 3-4 colonies in the tank. Those colonies did not show any reduced polyp extension or STN but it was interesting to note as I've never observed any pods hanging out on my acros before.

I'll state it again, no water changes is systematically, for husbandry purposes. Things will come up when water is exchanged for some reason or another. Its absurd to think otherwise. I'm not going to resist adding 15 gallons when I remove 15 gallons for a frag swap just to say I don't do water changes. Same with the tub, I added 60-70 gallons of new saltwater to compensate for the volume of the tub. I removed the tub and removed 60-70 gallons. I could have dipped all the acros in the tub totally separate of my system but I didnt want to risk the unstable system of having a separate tub and wanted to still use the stability of my tank and equipment to keep my corals safe, so I plumbed it together. I also replace 1-2 gallons of saltwater from time to time to adjust my salinity back from the removed skimmate.

I don't consider these scenarios as a farce to my no water change methods. You obviously don't have to agree, just my opinion Tim.

And now I've spent 45 mins away from this cute little guy during the holidays. Happy holidays to you Tim and to everyone on the club!

[Timfish]

Finally got around to testing the water.  Nitrate wasn't tested.  Got two noticably different readings forn Nyos and Red Sea so tested them against a standard. Red Sea was off by 10X and the Nyos was off by 25X.   Checked the Red Sea and it's reagent expired two months ago,  Nyos was current but it sits in my van.  

Fresh water after going through a water softener:

Alkalinity 0 dKH (API seemed to show a color change at 1 but colors were very, very faint and I know I don't have the best color perception)

Ph >8.8 (API)

Calcium ()

Magnesium >2000 mg/l

PO4 (.8) mg/l  (Nyos, estimated .5< (.8)  <1.0)

 

New Saltwater after sitting about 15 minutes.  After going through the water softener and a carbon filter water sits in a barrel that's had Carib Sea's Buffer Plus (calcium and bicarb) dumped in months and months ago, no agitation:

Alkalinty 9 dKH

pH 8.4 (API)

Calcium 480

Magnesium 1600

PO4 (.8) mg/l  (Nyos, estimated .5< (.8)  <1.0)

 

Aquarium

Alkalinity 9 dKH

pH 8.4  (API)

Calcium 480 (API)

Magnesium 1600 mg/l

PO4 >1.0 mg/l

 

For reference here's the parmeter's from the last time I tested in March

Alkalinity 12 dKH   (API)

pH 8.3 (API)

Temp 75

Salinity 1.024

Calcium 380   (API)

Magnesium 1200  (Red Sea)

Nitrate 12 mg/l  (Nyos)

PO4 2ish (API)

pH 8.3

 

And here's a video from this week:

 

[FarmerTy]

Great fish selection Tim! They complement each other and the tank well!

[jolt]

Love the video - looks awesome!

[Timfish]

Thank you!  For about a decade one of my clients was an artist who illustrated children's books.    Since the aquarium was in their studio we ended up having many conversations about the color wheel and color harmony and balance.  The "rule of thirds" and Fibonacci ratio or golden ratio also came up and I was pleasantly surprised and got some valuable insights discussing how an artist applied all these to aquarium design.    Just like with art every client has their preferences but the basic rules artists and architects and photographers use really helps.  (It was fascinating to see Dr. Haas' research at C4 in 2015 showing how the rules developed over time by artists could be used to quantify the health status of reefs.)

[Timfish]

This was a bittersweet addition.  A client I've had for 21 years moved to CA and shut down their fish only system.    It's sad to lose a system running for so long but I did get to move some very nice fish to my other clients.  This Purple Tang was in initially purchased in 2004:

 

[Timfish]

Latest video including a view from the upper balcony.

 

[JamesL]

Very nice!

[Timfish]

Here's a 450° spiral and a 90° roll.  Not sure what that's called in snow boarding.

 

[Timfish]

A problem I've always had with autofeeders is when set above an aquarium food often gets sucked into the overflow or is localized which lets fast or aggressive fish overfeed while slower fish underfeed and on this system had the additional problem of a lot of water getting splashed out of the tank.  The solution I came up with is a mixing tube to mix food dropped from an autofeeder into the water and disperse it from the return line.  Three critical considerations are the 90° elbow on the pump inlet to keep a vortex from forming and sucking air into the pump.  The slots cut into the side have an area or cross section about double the area or cross section of the pump's intake and the pump needs to feed only the aquarium, having a reactor or sterilzer will let food collect and rot.  The bottom should be sealed, in this case with a piece of acrylic.  Another advantage is it can take 10 or 15 minutes for all the food to drop and get dispersed giving a longer and more random feeding.  A notch cut in the door can help with smaller quantities and can be tested using a piece of tape first before cutting.

 

[Timfish]

Here's a current video including views of the filtration:

 Sumps in the right side cabinet are base rock with cryptic sponges and low flow.  Middle cabinet is storage.  Left side has return pumps, small canister filter with GFO and GAC, food mixing tube (see above video) and ATO.  The ATO is set on polyethelene runners and slides out a few inches to be filled.

[Sierra Bravo]

Very nice - I've always liked an aquascape that takes you from water to above the surface.  Excelent job with the mangroves growing from the exposed rock - looks very good.

[Timfish]

Thank you!   This was a really fun and challenging project.  Having to take into consideration viewing from so many perspectives and with refraction of top views even the backsides of the 'scaping can be seen from some angle.  The lighting continues to be a challenge with the variable amount of sunlight it gets throughout the year.