Rimless 180g "2nd child"

[Good Greef]

I am due for a big update, as I have finalized my fish stocking and started adding Acros the past month or two.

First though, do y'all know if all Par Meters are created equal?

Want to measure my PAR for my 2 Kessil Ap700s and was unsure if some meters measure LED better than others?

Saw RCA had a Sunsystems one which I know nothing about (or any Par Meters for that matter) But I'm also willing on renting from other members if they have other recommendations?

[jolt]

It's not so much the meter as the sensor you use.  Apogee made an led corrected version of theirs a couple of years back.  I don't know how well it actually works though.  They explain the differences here: https://www.apogeeinstruments.com/quantum/

 

[Timfish]

The Sun System's PAR meter is a rebranded Apogee MQ-210 marketed to the hydroponics industry.   It will read be about 10%-15% low on the blue spectrum. 

[Good Greef]

Craziest thing happened tonight while I was feeding my tank. My 3 yr old Midas Blenny inadvertently got pricked by my Mag Foxface, and went into involuntary spasms.

Within 4-5 minutes it had stopped breathing and laid dead. I even have video footage of the spasms, since I was in the middle of taking pics of my kiddo near the tank.

I knew their spines were venomous. But assumed most fish would be able to avoid contact.

My wife also witnessed the whole thing. Incredible bummer. Especially when its one if my older fish from my previous 75g. It was always laying eggs everywhere too..

 

My 3 yr old kept asking what happened and I just kept a pokerface.

Has anyone experienced something similar?

[Good Greef]

It's been awhile since I made any updates. For my records, I figured its good to document the good and bad at month 16.

 

My tank's fish stock sits at 24 total. Been feeding them frozen mysis/fish roe 2x/day, and my autofeeder drops pellets 2x/day. Don't plan on adding much more, if any. They don't fight

 

Been unable to keep my acros as healthy as I want. The level of analysis Ive gone through is too long to post about. But I am working on 3 major things before concluding my tank is too young at 16 months old.

1. ICP Test: attached are my results. Will post on natl forums for thoughts, but open to any thoughts here as well. I expected aluminum to be elevated because I run 2 marinepure blocks in my sump, but Tin levels are my only main concern now. Though when Randy Homes Fairley states it is impossible to discern the severity of tin levels, or what is toxic for corals, I'm limited to what I can do except large water changes.

2. Par Meter: acclimation to my light/spectrum had been my biggest theory. So ill prob rent one to check my 2xap700, but reading BRS and Riddle's par chart at 100%, I doubt it is the cause of struggles bc I max at 40%. I've tried mounting new frags up high immediately, then tried on a frag rack at bottom of my tank. 

3.  Adding more live, diverse organisms and bacteria to my tank. Since I started this tank off with 0% live rock for fear of pests, I think that's a big factor. So thanks Ty for letting me swap out a new rock for one of yours. 

Not all corals are struggling. Mainly acros get sunburnt/ peeling after 2-4 wks. Alk is literally between 7.25-7.40 every day. Biggest swing has been would be 0.35 daily, if any.

 

 

[Good Greef]

So to attempt to reduce the tin problem, I have done the following :

1. Removed a rusty magnetic hook that was 18 inches above my sump.

2. Refreshed 1/2 cup of GAC

3. Placed 300ml of Cuprisorb inside my filter sock drains for max absorption

4. ~20% water change

5. Will place plolyfilter tonight

Does anyone have experience with removing Tin from their tanks? Or how efficient cuprisorb is at removing metals?

Also wondering if its bad to tumble it too much and if others permanently run it or polyfilters in their DT?

I hope this was tied to that rusty hook, or because my tank and PVC are fairly new, which others anecdotally believe causes high tin levels for new tanks.

[victoly]

Before you drive yourself crazy, please consider the fact that this analysis may not be accurate or precise. 

This is why i don't like these broad spectrum analyses, because they're so hard to interpret and triton in particular has not been particularly forthcoming with their methodology in spite of calls for transparency by experts in marine aqueous chemistry. 

Before you go making tons of changes, find another lab next time and send a duplicate sample to them as you send it to triton. This will help confirm/deny something funky is actually going on. 

[Good Greef]

1 hour ago, victoly said:

Before you drive yourself crazy, please consider the fact that this analysis may not be accurate or precise. 

This is why i don't like these broad spectrum analyses, because they're so hard to interpret and triton in particular has not been particularly forthcoming with their methodology in spite of calls for transparency by experts in marine aqueous chemistry. 

Before you go making tons of changes, find another lab next time and send a duplicate sample to them as you send it to triton. This will help confirm/deny something funky is actually going on. 

Thanks Victoly. I appreciate the angle you approach this.

I guess, in a way, I am excited to have a tangible thing to focus on and target. And seeing a rusty magnetic hook above my sump added fuel to my fire to fix this.

Because when Alk/temp/salinity have been rock stable for 4-5 months, my po4 and no3 are present sufficiently (.03-.08 and 16ppm-32ppm), have corraline sprouting everywhere, i am acclimating slowly to my LEDs even if the frags came from tanks with LEDs. 

And I have other LPS and a digitata and setosa alive, I don't know what else to do...

But perhaps I will look to submit my 2nd test to multiple parties perhaps. Battlecorals coincidently, posted on R2R this week, that he also had high tin levels He experimented and sent the water to multiple test companies and the disparities were huge. 

Are these just scams haha?

 

 

[victoly]

Honestly I think its pretty unlikely that something not in the tank like this hook would a) have a measurable impact and b) be detrimental. 

Like I said in my last post, there are some scientists who I know who are well regarded in their fields (i.e., running a marine chemistry lab at a major R1 university) who voiced strong concerns over the methods being used here and their fitness for use. That doesn't even get into the interpretation part, which is challenging too. 

I personally would not use my money on ICP testing as anything other than a curiousity. However, you see the dark side of this in that you now feel the need to act and you better believe these labs follow up with magical potions to fix whatever ails you. I'm just not a believer. 

I would spend that money on a really good tank controller, monitor temp/sal/alk via controller if you can swing it and just be patient. 

[Good Greef]

18 minutes ago, victoly said:

Honestly I think its pretty unlikely that something not in the tank like this hook would a) have a measurable impact and b) be detrimental. 

Like I said in my last post, there are some scientists who I know who are well regarded in their fields (i.e., running a marine chemistry lab at a major R1 university) who voiced strong concerns over the methods being used here and their fitness for use. That doesn't even get into the interpretation part, which is challenging too. 

I personally would not use my money on ICP testing as anything other than a curiousity. However, you see the dark side of this in that you now feel the need to act and you better believe these labs follow up with magical potions to fix whatever ails you. I'm just not a believer. 

I would spend that money on a really good tank controller, monitor temp/sal/alk via controller if you can swing it and just be patient. 

Thanks for your thoughts. I do have the newer Apex which has monitored those crucial parameters continuously since day one.

But yes, I have zero intention of buying any products from Triton or anywhere else. I can only imagine how much money they make on that. If they had an accurate hobby grade test kit for tin I would buy that, but doesnt seem like there is.

My geo 618 reactor and AP carbon doser keep the alk/cal in shape. I test po4 daily with HannaULR, which is getting expensive too. I feel like a car mechanic that has tried everything to fix that squeaking and am running out of things to check.

 

[Good Greef]

I almost didnt want to post anything b/c it takes so much energy to re-explain my situation.  But I consider this a journal for my sake, so here we go. ** Preface: its not the ICP tests that I'm basing my theory on, its the pattern of acro growth then death that has been in lockstep with my tin levels over a 7 month period**

After diluting all the tin out of my tank with several 60 gallon water changes 7+ months ago. I loaded up on a bunch of acros from Ty and Jolt. My hypothesis was my initial tin buildup came from the new floated glass and pvc of my tank + one rusty hook above my sump.

So I stopped water changes and for several months my acros finally started showing encrusting. Then one by one they started getting the burnt tips and dying, as they did previously  with my elevated tin. Alk and nutrients were stable the whole time (see past posts on details bc I dont feel the need to prove they were each time, though its all logged daily in my APEX).

Sent in another ICP test and tin was back up to 12mcg/l from 1mcg.

Some of yall will say its not an issue but I am 100%saying it is FOR MY TANK. Also read that high p04 excaberates it, which explains why some ppl may not have coral death with elevated tin issues. And all my LPS and gonis are fine, its just the acros and montis.

Long story short (or not ha), I took all pumps apart again and noticed rusting in the 2 places I didn't check previously. My tunze osmolator and my water change pump (tunze also)that i store 24/7 in my fresh rodi.

Both had signs of rust so I replaced them. Also ran a magnet through my sump and sand.

180 gallons of water changes over a week later, and I immediately see life on what I thought were 100% dead skeletons. The only other "issue" on my ICP was elevated aluminum which I assume came from my 2xblocks of marine pure. i chunked them too bc I dont need it anymore.

So I sent in another icp test to get a baseline for my tin going fwd. Will be trying again with a few test acros, and will test again in a month to see if it rises.

Sigh... when you test things daily and ensure all parameters are stable, it's discouraging to stay in this hobby (not to mention this all went down when my 4 month old was born SMH).

Moral of the story: Tin can be an issue. Nothing removes it except large water changes. If you have an enemy, hide a nail in their sand hahaha.

 

 

Edited September 17, 2019 by Good Greef

[jolt]

Sorry to hear about the problems, but seems like excellent detective work!

[Timfish]

I can certainly appreciate how frustrating it can be not knowing why a coral(s) die.   I am glad to see you post your efforts and test results.   As Victoly pointed out there are some serious reservations about ICP testing but having test results along with your observations It's still  potentially valuable information others can use to help identify issues.   ANd having seen corals from hte same clone line respond differently to what appears to be the same conditions the limited testing we have available indicates the more information we have the better we're going to be able to keep these animals for their normal life expectancies.  I am curious exactly where the tin is coming from as my tests of tap water here didn't show any tin.   While most of our water comes from lake Travis I know there's a lot that comes from wells or private water utilities that may treat thier water differently than City of Austin.

[victoly]

i feel your pain, but I'm still very leary of trusting ICP. have you sent in a blank sample of just your saltwater? To a different lab? To a lab that uses a different method than ICP-OES? I know its an extra expense, but either there is a tin epidemic in reefing, or there is something related to the analytical method that is showing this as an issue. And as might guess, the primary provider of these tests has given you a reason to do more tests, and pay them more money to do so. 

In my opinion, the probability of this being a biological issue or a nutrient issue is so much greater than the probability that one specific metal is causing you an issue. 

Keep in mind most reefers (and most people) have no actual idea what they are talking about. I have two degrees in geoscience, with my graduate degree in geochemistry and a decade using analytical chemistry to solve problems with minerals and water. I am very qualified in this area. I am still only marginally know what I'm talking about. 
 

[Good Greef]

On 9/18/2019 at 9:57 AM, victoly said:

i feel your pain, but I'm still very leary of trusting ICP. have you sent in a blank sample of just your saltwater? To a different lab? To a lab that uses a different method than ICP-OES? I know its an extra expense, but either there is a tin epidemic in reefing, or there is something related to the analytical method that is showing this as an issue. And as might guess, the primary provider of these tests has given you a reason to do more tests, and pay them more money to do so. 

In my opinion, the probability of this being a biological issue or a nutrient issue is so much greater than the probability that one specific metal is causing you an issue. 

Keep in mind most reefers (and most people) have no actual idea what they are talking about. I have two degrees in geoscience, with my graduate degree in geochemistry and a decade using analytical chemistry to solve problems with minerals and water. I am very qualified in this area. I am still only marginally know what I'm talking about. 
 

Not gonna question any of your degrees, or say other reefers are smarter than you. I'm an economics and finance guy..

But I just don't know if I trust anyone better than myself, because its my tank that i test daily for 2 yrs and observe with my own eyes. And I am the one watching the daily revival or coral flesh, almost immediately after I do massive water changes. When I dilute my tank 20% between tests, the drop in Sn corresponds exactly. 

So I think its smart to everyone on online forums to do their own detective work.  Because if I were just gonna follow your advice for example that its a nutrient issue, then I cannot explain why po4 levels of .05ppm (using Hanna ULR, daily) for 3 months straight still kills acros, and levels of .12 for 3 months kills them too? Alk always between 7.25dkh-7.50dkh.

There's no doubt there's a money grab by TRITON, but isn't this whole **** hobby  a money grab?

I guess my point is. I don't think I can be more diligent in daily testing and note taking. So I can either go my route or just never buy acros again and enjoy my tank. But to answer you, I was going to send in just fresh saltwater for the test (might still do), but I thought how did my previous massive water changes drop my tin so much, if my newly mixed saltwater was tainted too?

Going fwd, my plan is:

1. Make note of my baseline test when results are back next week.

2. Stop water changes for a month and observe my frags to see if tissue is continuing to grow back. Send another Triton test in. If tin levels don't rise at all, then im good.

3. If they do raise slightly, I will stop my search for whatever the hell is causing it. And just spend 15 mins, once a month, and do a 33%water change. 

4. Buy more coral 

Edited September 20, 2019 by Good Greef

[victoly]

How’s the tank looking these days ?