My First Skimmerless System

[Timfish]

This is the first system I set up 19 years ago in June, 1997 without a skimmer and thought I'd do a thread on it. For the first post I thought I'd start with a video taken a couple years ago:

Recent water parameters:

Alkalinity 5-10 dKH

pH 7.8 - 8.1

Salinity 1.022 - 1.027

Temp 76 - 78

Nitrate 1 ppm

[JasReef]

I just cleaned my skimmer out and couldn't imagine where all that crap would go in the tank without a skimmer. I run my 29 cube skimmerless, just rock, sand and a carbon pad every once in a while. They both seem to work ok to me.

Is that all you run now? Skimmerless? I would love to hear more about nutrient export or exchange.

[Timfish]

Corals are competing with algae for the various forms of nitrogen and phosphate in our systems. In my experience neither nitrates or phosphates are the primary cause of nuisance algae problems. If you look at this thread on hair algae I got rid of the hair algae without reducing PO4, inorganic phosphate. The nitrate, NO3, did not drop until AFTER the hair algae disappeared. The anemones that had turned brown with the algae outbreak started to recolor as the algae receded even though there still had not been any change in those nutrients. The Dissolved Organic Carbon (DOC) skimmers might, at best, partially remove is consumed by cryptic sponges and converted into bicarbonate, HCO3, that corals will use for both skeleton building and photosynthesis.

[Timfish]

Here's some current photos:

Left end:

Right end:

[Timfish]

This weeks tests results and pics

Alk 7
pH 8.1
Temp 77
Magnesium 1040
Calcium 340
Nitrate <.25

[Timfish]

Pics for this week:

[Peter Gott]

I've never liked skimmers either! And this tank is stunning. I love the cascade of xenia framed by the frogspawn and mushrooms and zoas. They're such classic corals, and absolutely stunning as grown-in as they are here they prove one doesn't need the newest corals or the rarest ones!

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[Timfish]

. . . this tank is stunning. . .

Thank You!

. . . one doesn't need the newest corals or the rarest ones! . . .

Well, to be honest , the green finger is Sinularia foliata and is arguably the rarest aquacultured octocoral. And the thin clams in the bottom left corner have successfully reproduced in this system which is a pretty rare accomplishment if I do say so myself. Here's the thread I posted about them.

[Peter Gott]

. . . this tank is stunning. . .

Thank You!

. . . one doesn't need the newest corals or the rarest ones! . . .

Well, to be honest , the green finger is Sinularia foliata and is arguably the rarest aquacultured octocoral. And the thin clams in the bottom left corner have successfully reproduced in this system which is a pretty rare accomplishment if I do say so myself. Here's the thread I posted about them.

That Sinularia is rare??? Man, I feel like an idiot now...I used to have a whole bunch of it when I first started reefing back in like 2003, all grown from one frag. I ultimately sold all of it because I went through a phase when I decided I didn't like softies!!! That explains why I couldn't find any when I moved here and started reefing again; I figured it was just an East Coast thing.

As far as that comment though, I meant the xenia and cascade and then the coral around it; those mushies and the orange and green zoas especially. Although since those were also all coral I started off with now I'm not going to be surprised if you tell me they are also rare lol.

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[Timfish]

. . . That Sinularia is rare??? Man, I feel like an idiot now...

Don't feel like an idiot. There's several hundred species of Sinularia and many have similar looking growth forms. Mine is the only species I know of that I can provide paperwork from a world respected taxonomist, Dr. Micheal Jaines in Pheonix, AZ, proving it is what it is. Sinularia foliata is one of several dozen different speicies found in Palau and was one of the species nearly wiped out by the El Nino event in '98 and current research only has it identified in one local. Ironicly most if not all of the aquacultured "Nepthia" Palau Green Fingers available are actually in the genus Sinularia and not in the genus Nephthia.

[Peter Gott]

. . . That Sinularia is rare??? Man, I feel like an idiot now...

Don't feel like an idiot. There's several hundred species of Sinularia and many have similar looking growth forms. Mine is the only species I know of that I can provide paperwork from a world respected taxonomist, Dr. Micheal Jaines in Pheonix, AZ, proving it is what it is. Sinularia foliata is one of several dozen different speicies found in Palau and was one of the species nearly wiped out by the El Nino event in '98 and current research only has it identified in one local. Ironicly most if not all of the aquacultured "Nepthia" Palau Green Fingers available are actually in the genus Sinularia and not in the genus Nephthia.

Tim, you're my hero/what I want to be when I grow up. If I ever actually grow up that is, lol.

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[Timfish]

. . . If I ever actually grow up that is, lol. . .

Smart kids don't grow up!

[Timfish]

Thought I'd post the parameters for the new slatwater. I didn't test for ammonia but it should be around 1 mg/l as it's made with just RO and not RO/DI.

Alk 11 dKH
pH 8.2
Calcium 400 mg/l
Nitrate ~2 mg/l (Red Sea Pro)
PO4 .1 mg/l (Nyos)
Mag 1600 mg/l

And here's some pics:

[Timfish]

Well, I survived the holidays and moving 3 systems in 10 days so maybe it's time to post some pictures.  

[jolt]

That's one HUGE starfish hiding in the cave!

[Timfish]

Yeah, it was added back in '98 and was already half grown.  It's my impression they should be living decades in our aquaria.

[Timfish]

And here's a current video:

 

[Sissy36]

Soo pretty! I caved and put the skimmer back on my tank ?[emoji55]

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[Timfish]

14 hours ago, Sissy36 said:

Soo pretty! I caved and put the skimmer back on my tank ?

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Well, there are certainly some individuals that are pleased to see you do so.  I'm curious what your thought process was in making that decision?

[Sissy36]

Well, there are certainly some individuals that are pleased to see you do so.  I'm curious what your thought process was in making that decision?

My nitrates were steadily climbing and got higher than my liking and the algae was increasing and it just looked dirty. I'm positive the last two are because I also took out my uv filter. My tank has been a bit neglected since Angel left. I'm doing weekly water changes now but lost track for a while there. In addition I have trouble letting everything balance out in time. It scares me. You have quite a few years of experience over me! If I loose this tank I'll never be able to replace it now. [emoji29]

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[Timfish]

On 2/13/2017 at 0:43 PM, Sissy36 said:

My nitrates were steadily climbing and got higher . . .
 

I do not worry about nitrates.   What I noticed a long time ago was nitrates do not cause nuisance algae problems and did not seem to impact the corals in my tanks.  The simple circle given by Spotte in his book Marine Aquarium Keeping and parroted by many "gurus" since worked for fish only systems but just seemed lacking when it came to reef systems.   Trying to find a better explanation and a better understanding I was pleased to find a much better description of the nitrogen cycle in Debeek and Sprung's The Reef Aquarium Vol III.  Since then, chasing down papers, I've found it fascinating at how much more complex we're learning the nitrogen cycle both outside and within the coral holobiont.  What seems very obvious to me now is we need to think of organic forms of nitrogen, urea and amino acids, and inorganic forms, ammonia, nitrite and nitrate as just parts of the total nitrogen in the system.  And both corals and algae are competing for the same forms.  There's other issues the shift the equilibrium from algae to corals or corals to algae.   Beside getting Forest Rohwer's book Coral Reefs in the Microbial Seas here's a link to a paper reviewing the research on the cycling of nitrogen:  http://www.cell.com/trends/microbiology/pdf/S0966-842X(15)00075-X.pdf

[Peter Gott]

And here's a current video:
 

I love this tank so much.


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[Peter Gott]

My nitrates were steadily climbing and got higher than my liking and the algae was increasing and it just looked dirty. I'm positive the last two are because I also took out my uv filter. My tank has been a bit neglected since Angel left. I'm doing weekly water changes now but lost track for a while there. In addition I have trouble letting everything balance out in time. It scares me. You have quite a few years of experience over me! If I loose this tank I'll never be able to replace it now. [emoji29]

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The balancing is the best part though. When you get a balanced system with an appropriate bioload it practically takes care of itself. And it tells you what it needs because you learn how to understand it because it is consistent.


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[touristsis]

Hi Tim,  I'm Khang.  I'm new to this forum.  I got a quick question for you.  How are you doing skimless?  Are you growing Chaeto?  Are you using Algae Scrubber?  Are you carbon dosing?  GFO?

I too just took out my skimmer, however, i'm struggling a bit growing chaeto.  My Algae scrubber is also not able to catch up with my bio-load.  My nitrates is at 20 ppm and phosphate is at 1.0 ppm.  I'm trying to figure a long term solutions for this.  

 

[Timfish]

In my maintenance business I have several combinations.  This system does not have any place to grow macro algae or an algae scrubber and after what I have read about the different roles played by DOC released by algae and by corals I would not reccomend trying to use macro algae or algae scrubbers.  But if you set on doing so cheato produces far less harmfull DOC than most other algae.  I definitely would not use any form of carbon dosing, you're selectively manipulating the microbial populations and you cannot test what you are doing, same reason for not using skimmers.   Regarding PO4 there has been a misconception for a long time, unfortunately endorsed by some prominant "Gurus", that just small amounts cause "poisoning" of the coral skeleton when in reality research shows coral growth is increased wiht increased PO4 levels.  What is also rarely passed on is the average on reefs is .13 mg/l and upwellinf will expose reefs to as much as 2.0 mg/ and that phosphate is a limiting nutrient for corals to utilize ammonia and nitrate as a food source for their zooxanthellae.  In my experienece I don't see any deaths I can attribute to PO4 until levels are at 7 or 8 mg/l.  As far as nitrate, forget about it, you need really high levels, way in excess of 100 mg/l to cause potential problems.    Corals are competing with algae for ALL forms of nitrogen, organic (amino acids and urea) and inorganic (ammonia and nitrate).  So you can see there's a whole lot going on with nitrogen and phosphate we can't test for.  Focusing just on one form of each often doesn't help solve any problems.  Helping MFrame with hair algae, th PO4 and nitrate levels increased after we got rid of the algae.  Trying to get rid of the hiar algae by reducing the PO4 and Nitrate only would have impacted the corals ability to compete and aggrevated the problem.