Collector's corals VS making money

[Dan H]

Count me in.

[Gig 'em @ NDstructible]

I'm always game for beers and nerding

[jestep]

How many times have you gone to a LFS and seen animals that are nearly impossible to keep?

There's a ton that have no business in the hobby trade at all.

I'd even go further and add animals that are flat out inappropriate to be available to aquarists. Even something like the common plecostomus should be banned entirely. How many times do these end up free on craigslist or get dumped into a lake because they outgrew the tank...? Every time!

Same could be said of fishlike red tail catfish, any grouper, large eels, lionfish, etc., none are particularly difficult to keep, but none should be so available for everyone to purchase.

[Dan H]

There's a ton that have no business in the hobby trade at all.

I'd even go further and add animals that are flat out inappropriate to be available to aquarists. Even something like the common plecostomus should be banned entirely. How many times do these end up free on craigslist or get dumped into a lake because they outgrew the tank...? Every time!

Same could be said of fishlike red tail catfish, any grouper, large eels, lionfish, etc., none are particularly difficult to keep, but none should be so available for everyone to purchase.

Well said.

Back in the early 2000's when Meg and I first got in the hobby, after learning more and more we were disgusted with the disregard for life that many LFS's made when buying/selling animals. We decided to become very outspoken and even went so far as to give multiple presentations at our local club on ethics within the hobby. This was partly why Meg was elected the president of WMMAC. I think we eventually got exhausted by the impossible battle and somewhat accepted that in reality, it's an unfortunate and dark part of the equation for LFS's to survive. Not to mention you don't exactly make a lot of friends when accusing people of making unethical choices.

The ultimate conclusion we made is that we can only control what we buy, and what we sell. So we've made a lot of effort to ensure that what we buy is ethically sourced, and do our best to ensure its long term survival and happiness. The ethics debate can get really really ugly.

[+BobcatReefer]

How many times have you gone to a LFS and seen animals that are nearly impossible to keep?

There's a ton that have no business in the hobby trade at all.

I'd even go further and add animals that are flat out inappropriate to be available to aquarists.

Thought about this as I've been reading the thread, and seeing the "what's good for the LFS as it relates to the hobby overall" theme. 15 years ago the folks at Bark-N-Purr sold me an $85 Blue Ribbon Eel. Nevermind that I had my tank up and running for about 3 months and the common sense of a dog turd about the hobby. Even told me it was easy to keep. After about 36 hours of that poor thing looking so unbelievably distressed, I took it back, got a verbal beatdown and was blacklisted from shopping there again. I know it's their job to make money, but never once have I heard an LFS employee say "No, that's a really tough animal to take care of. Only experts should attempt it. How long have you had your tank up and running?"

[FarmerTy]

I think 15 years ago, most people didn't have a lick of a clue on how to keep a lot of the fish and corals alive... not to mention an eel. That's terrible that they did that.

Honestly, I think I would have expected spotty saltwater knowledge from a place called Bark-N-Purr so I'm going to assume their focus was elsewhere.

I'm not going to say the LFS don't have a goal to stay in business, and that business requires them to sell things. You just hope they act ethically and if someone has a new tank, don't tell them to go buy a "insert hard to keep coral/fish here" and that its easy to keep.

Even when I was selling at the San Antonio frag swap, I didn't go out of my way to ask every single person if they've kept SPS before? Now if they told me that their tank was new or they've never kept SPS before, I kindly pointed them to some easy to keep stylo to test the system out and to not buy that $50 oregon tort frag because you will assuredly kill it.

[+BobcatReefer]

I think 15 years ago, most people didn't have a lick of a clue on how to keep a lot of the fish and corals alive... not to mention an eel.

Is the reefing knowledge base really that new?

BTW - the guy at the old River & Reefs on S Congress knew. When I went in there looking for help he was like "Uh, bad idea kid." Also, apparently that place didn't go away, but just moved to S 1st. I'll have to poke my head in there soon.

[FarmerTy]

I think 15 years ago, most people didn't have a lick of a clue on how to keep a lot of the fish and corals alive... not to mention an eel.

Is the reefing knowledge base really that new?

BTW - the guy at the old River & Reefs on S Congress knew. When I went in there looking for help he was like "Uh, bad idea kid." Also, apparently that place didn't go away, but just moved to S 1st. I'll have to poke my head in there soon.

That's true, I'm just getting older and not realizing it. I was keeping corals in 2004 and that's 12 years ago. Dang! Why'd you remind me of how old I am getting!

The last time I went into River and Reefs like 5 years ago, I saw 2 tanks that were saltwater. One had a clownfish and the other was empty. Another place I wouldn't hedge my bets on for advice. Haha.

[Dan H]

I think we all hope that LFS's are ethical and knowledgeable... And many times you will find that they are. But many times you won't. It's hit and miss and unfortunately, when you're new to the hobby, you won't know the difference. :/

I know there was a mentoring thing on ARC... I wonder if we should look into a way to make that a more powerful and further reaching program? It'd be really cool if there were a way to inform people that are looking to get in to the hobby to reach out to ARC first, get paired up with a mentor, and THEN go buy stuff from the LFS... There would be a lot less heartbreak and dead animals. Plus less wasted money on the wrong hardware although that part is not potentially appealing to the business owners.

I would be willing to volunteer to help a noob.

[FarmerTy]

The mentor program definitely needs revitalizing. I had a mentee bail out of the hobby due to finances, one that got swamped because he opened up his own business, and one that got married and disappeared. All great people but sometimes life just gets in the way.

[nuxx]

If it's legal, who cares how people make money.

I can buy from various wholesalers and jobbers in LA, but very rarely buy coral from them.

Why?

The cost.

Wholesale is great if you're buying colonies, but it's mostly a crap shoot.

Frags from wholesalers tend to be more expensive than hobbyists prices, which are often better quality and larger. You also get to see the frags in person. Now factor the markup at a LFS and those wholesale frags get very expensive.

If you have any opportunity to make money off of a hobby, do it!

Totally agree with Ty about opening a store... quickest way to hate the hobby. A year of Coral Imports and dealing with customers everyday almost drove me out of the hobby...

[nuxx]

Also wanted to add...

I don't really get the whole support your LFS thing.

If a hobbyist selling frags or an online store puts a LFS out of business, then they were on death's door anyway.

I can honestly say, LFS haven't done anything for me in years. Haven't bought anything but food (way marked up) from LFS since the Yellow Belly Blue Tang from Aquadome that was the size of my fingernail. He's now well over 5 inches...

So why should I support LFS?

As for chop shops... a lot of wholesalers have shifted to frags over the last year. Where do you think they get their frags from? Following the flow of livestock, where then do the LFS get their frags from?

[Dan H]

I was hoping you would chime in considering your direct experience.

I would say that just because it's legal doesn't mean you should do it... I was in the lead-gen business for a few years, and there was a few times that we looked into some potentially unethical options that would have made boat-loads of money, but we just didn't feel it was the right thing to do so we didn't. It gets a bit hairy when you skate the unethical line... If there's nobody to watch over you, it's up to your own conscience... But if you get caught, you have to deal with the repercussions. Customers can get upset, lawyers can get involved, it gets ugly... It's much easier to make money without worrying about ethics.

I think you hit the nail on the head Peter... I like having LFS's available, and will shop at them, but it's not charity. I'm not going to just give you extra money, you still have to be competitive. That doesn't mean that the lowest price always wins, I will pay more when I see some other reason for it... Such as guarantees or immediate availability, etc... But to be honest, I prefer buying frags from hobbyists. I think they are generally better taken care of and have better health. More than half of the corals in my tank are from hobbyists. Hell, I've bought quite a few from just Ty and Pham alone. And that's just it, you mean to tell me a LFS has the zoa selection that Pham has? Or the SPS selection Ty has? And they are as healthy and well taken care of? Just look at the extreme measure Ty went through to dip his Acros! I love that I can buy a coral from him and not worry 1 bit that about it's health.

I honestly believe the market is heading more and more towards a distributed system like Uber. Think about it... Is it really practical for LFS's to spend the money setting up huge fragging systems and tending to baby frags while they heal up, or growing out tons of colonies to frag up and saturate the market? OR, should the LFS's let the hobbyists do the fragging and growing in a distributed environment across hundreds of systems, then snag up the frags for cheap and resell them? That's a huge advantage for the LFS... They get better variety, and take on almost no risk. The only downside is they have to compete with the hobbyists, but there's no reason they shouldn't be able to do so effectively. They have the advantage of a retail site, and foot traffic. Hobbyists basically sell a few frags at a time to specific buyers willing to come to your home or meet up somewhere and do a "drug deal". The only time a hobbyists can actually make some good money is at frag swaps. Then they get foot traffic so in those scenarios, LFS's really are at a disadvantage and are pretty much non-competitive due to having to meet margins.

[nuxx]

You mention selection...

Used to go into LFS to see all the fish, now it's just like meh...

While doing Coral Imports we sold 10:1 ratio of $200 fish to $10 fish.

LFS are not going to take the risk of brining in rare Angels or Wrasses and just hope somebody wonders in and buys them. So yeah, nothing really to look at while in the stores, for me at least. I'm not really as into coral, so I can't say too much on their coral selection.

Honestly the last few times I've been into a LFS, I just grabbed food and left.

I think LFS really count on newbie aquarists (impulse) and service gigs. The more you start looking into the guys that are serious in the hobby, they aren't really shopping LFS.

Some wholesalers are also actively working on solutions to bring LFS more into the digital age as well...

But hey, I am a member over at Aquadome

[FarmerTy]

I think its more about the indirect impact of a LFS than what you get directly as an experienced reefer. I bet half the tanks you were selling corals to with Coral Imports probably got started with the help of a LFS. Without them, you would have probably had less of a clientele base. When they had issues with their tanks, they probably ran to a LFS to get something immediately rather wait for 2 day shipping. When they had no clue what they were doing, they probably sought advice from a LFS. You'd be surprised how many people I meet while I window shop at the LFS that barely jump on the computer. To them, the LFS is their everything. I often take for granted my familiarity and comfort with the internet and technology... there is a large majority out there that don't have that same situation.

In the same vain, can't say I've bought much from a LFS for a long time now but now that my disposable income has grown, I felt less of a need to always make the best financial choice but sometimes make it the best choice for me to contribute to my local community. So lately I have been buying more fish from a LFS... well, really just having them order them for me... same with corals. To me, it's just another way for me to make Austin that much more of a town I want to continue to live in... the same way I still eat local when I can and skip chain restaurants more often than not. I don't want to see more Taco Bells around town then Torchy's Tacos. That's why I buy toys at Terra Toys for my niece and nephew instead of Toys'r Us.

To each their own in the end. There is no right or wrong here, just preference and belief.

[nuxx]

I don't want to see more Taco Bells around town then Torchy's Tacos.

Dude that's like Tina's favorite place!

I agree with what you say about people getting their start at LFS. We started at AquaTek, wasn't the best advice, but got us started.

When I have issues, I tend to think getting advice / researching online is the best option. You get multiple opinions and examples. LFS typically only give you one train of though.

Imagine if I went on Shane's advice...

I'd be ripping out my Kessils, taking out all my dry rock and adding 3x the amount of cured special live rock and replacing my acrylic is only for hippies tank with glass.

BTW: Anyone have a good source for VHOs?

[Dan H]

Should have a Beer:30 at Torchy's...

[nuxx]

Should have a Beer:30 at Torchy's...

Meh...

Pinthouse South

[FarmerTy]

Should have a Beer:30 at Torchy's...

Meh...

Pinthouse South

Oh those southies...

[BornToHula]

Just chiming in to say I agree that LFS help bring many people into the hobby.

When I was interested in getting into saltwater, the first thing we did is google "Saltwater fish store austin", went to Aquatek, and just said I was interested in getting a saltwater tank. Steve at Aquatek gave me the the basics of the saltwater tank and even suggestions on where to do some research online without trying to hard sell anything. He didn't warn me how utterly addicting this hobby is, but if I had to guess, they help newbies all the time and get more and more people into the hobby. In my opinion that is a valuable resource for this hobby. I don't buy everything from LFS but I try and check if they have what I'm looking for in stock before I go looking online.

On the other side of things, I think hobbyist selling frags is also important. There are several corals that are simply too expensive or rare for a LFS to carry with any regularity and hobbyist make them available to more people. One of my goals is to grow large enough SPS colonies to frag and bring to one of our swaps to sell. Now will I ever recoup the costs of setting up my tank? Not in a thousand years, but maybe I will pay for my T5 bulbs for the year or something.

[+OU12004]

With my SPS struggles, if I were not able to buy less expensive SPS frags from other reefers I would would have given up on them a long time ago. There are a number of corals that are not easily fragged and I buy many of those from the LFS, Scolies, Plates, Wall Hammers and others come to mind. I prefer to keep my money local and see what I am buying, so I buy from both local reefers and the LFS, but I do not buy from online sources any more.

I am grateful to the reefers who do take the risk of buying something without seeing it in person and I think it is fair for them to recover some or all of the cost to bring that coral into Austin. If they make a profit, given the addiction most of us suffer that is fine with me, they will most likely just spend it on a even better coral that they will then make available to us so it is a win win.

As far as buying a mariculture locally, fragging it and selling the frags for 30% of what the colony cost after a few weeks of having it, I will let others judge that. If they hold onto a mariculture for 6 months to a year and it keeps its color and doesn't melt then by all means please make it available to others.

I hope people keep supporting their local shops, I spend more time than I should hanging out in them and I am pretty sure the people on this forum do not want me randomly stopping by and asking them how much everything in their tank is and when they are getting my leopard wrasses in.

[FarmerTy]

Quit bugging me already! Your leopard is coming in tomorrow! Jeez! [emoji12]