Jimbo662 Posted December 15, 2015 Share Posted December 15, 2015 Well...it had to happen sooner or later!!! 3 yrs in the hobby and my first case of ich! Anyone have a 75g or larger tank just sitting around I can use for a hospital tank? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FarmerTy Posted December 15, 2015 Share Posted December 15, 2015 Oh nooo!!! Are you treating with copper, hypo, chloroquine phosphate, or tank transfer method? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimbo662 Posted December 15, 2015 Author Share Posted December 15, 2015 was debating between hypo and copper. in all my searching i never saw anything about the chloroquine and not enough room / tanks for the transfer method. Yeah, there I was Saturday bragging to jolt about my PBT. Sunday I thought I noticed a couple of bumps on him then by late yesterday afternoon he was peppered with spots. The sailfin and yellow tanks had a couple of spots. So far none of the other fish are showing any signs. Not sure what caused the outbreak...they're all fat little pigs and have no stress in their life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jolt Posted December 15, 2015 Share Posted December 15, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimbo662 Posted December 15, 2015 Author Share Posted December 15, 2015 I think I'm going with the hypo treatment so that the tank isn't contaminated for any future use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FarmerTy Posted December 15, 2015 Share Posted December 15, 2015 Anecdotal evidence in some of the larger forums say ich management won't work with the acantharus tangs... they are just too prone to succumbing to ich and once they are infected, they become the reproductive catalyst for ich and the population booms, overwhelming your other fish which were showing no infection up to that point with their natural resistance. That's the main reason why I'm treating for ich and going fallow. I want to keep a powder blue and maybe an achilles one day. If I didn't want them, I would have just continued to run ich management and my fish would have been fine. Even more evidence to support that conclusion, I had my powder blue in my sump for 3 months in the same water, no ich on the tang at all and the main DT had 15 fish with an occasional spot here or there, but no outbreaks. The minute I put the powder blue in the main DT, he got ich and it only got worse and worse... and no, he was not getting bullied or stressed in any way that I could see. Once an outbreak broke out on him, he became the one to aid in increasing the population of ich in the tank and all the other fish, which were once able to be resistent to ich, broke out in ich as well. Are you doing hypo in a QT tank with all the fish separately and then leaving the DT fallow for 76 days? Or are you removing corals to another system and then going hypo on the main DT? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimbo662 Posted December 15, 2015 Author Share Posted December 15, 2015 I was just reading that hypo doesn't kill the beneficial bacteria but will kill any inverts. I guess it'd be much easier trying to get the inverts out of the display than the fish. I can move those and the corals into the QT tank. I like this idea much better...not having to find another tank to set up that'll hold all the fish and would be less stressful on them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FarmerTy Posted December 15, 2015 Share Posted December 15, 2015 I was just reading that hypo doesn't kill the beneficial bacteria but will kill any inverts. I guess it'd be much easier trying to get the inverts out of the display than the fish. I can move those and the corals into the QT tank. I like this idea much better...not having to find another tank to set up that'll hold all the fish and would be less stressful on them.I've never done hypo. How long do you need to run it for it to clear the tank? I know fallow was 76 days. I wasn't sure if it was different with hypo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimbo662 Posted December 15, 2015 Author Share Posted December 15, 2015 Ugh!!!!! I'm sooooo confused...the more I look the more I see different opinions about whether it kills beneficial bacteria or not! Another article indicated some ich may survive down lower in the sand that may not get enough of the lower salinity. Some articles say it's safe to do hypo in the DT and others say no. Hypo takes 4-6 weeks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FarmerTy Posted December 15, 2015 Share Posted December 15, 2015 From some experiences I've read about, hypo on the DT would not be the option I choose. In my unprofessional opinion, I'd be surprised if it didn't affect bacterial populations in the tank. Bacteria are very simple... I just think they'll be affected greatly by a change in salinity. It would affect the osmostic pressure in their systems much more than a it would affect a fish and I say enough to kill them. For clearing of the DT with hypo, I'd imagine it's 76 days just like going fallow. The long timeframe with being fallow shouldn't change based on treatment type, at least that's my assumption. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nuxx Posted December 15, 2015 Share Posted December 15, 2015 Over the past week or so I've been wondering if ich somehow got into our display... I haven't 100% proven it, but I've seen scratching, but no 100% identifiable parasite. My QT procedure is as follows... Fish: - Get new fish eating. - 15 days of Paraguard and 3 rounds of Prazi during. - 4 weeks of Cupramine. - Observation. Coral / Inverts: - 72+ days in a fishless frag tank. - Reset clock on each new wet item added. The only explanations are: - 72 days fishless isn't long enough (Did 90 last time). - Cupramine isn't 100% effective. - Airborne ich made it about 20-30 feet. - Washing and drying hands and waiting a few hours isn't enough. - Ich is always present, either all the time or if the fish is ever infected. - Ich cures (Hypo, Copper, TTM) might just make the parasite dormant, waiting for a stressor. Given all this, if ich got in my display I wouldn't sweat it. Healthy fish can live with ich in the system. Also there is a strong belief that with no new strains of ich and no new fish hosts, a strain can burn out in 11-18 months. Bottom line is that I was treating this hobby as more of a hospital than an enjoyable hobby. Going forward I'm going to change the frag tank into having fish and rock. New inverts and coral will stay 30-40 days in the tank and the fish are there to keep the coral healthy (try keeping coral without fish for 72+ days...) and also show any signs of tank killers like velvet coming in... For fish, I'll QT to get eating and lookout for things like velvet. I'm just going to get fish eating and do 30 days of Paraguard and 3 treatments of Prazi. Long post I made about all of this over on RC (On another forum, but interesting read): http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2544299 BTW: There are lots of guys with Acan. tangs, esp. Achilles that live with ich in their systems. I read a lot of big tank builds with Achilles and ich. Mainly the Achilles with show some signs everything now and then, but it'll then just go away. It's all about tank size, tang/fish load and stress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimbo662 Posted December 15, 2015 Author Share Posted December 15, 2015 "with no new strains of ich and no new fish hosts, a strain can burn out in 11-18 months." I saw this statement in several other posts. Lights are now ramping up and it appears that about 90% of the spots / bumps on the PBT are gone. I wonder if I'm jumping the gun too soon. All the fish are very healthy and active and will eat as much as they can get to at ever feeding. On Tues,Thurs, Sat and Sun I feed twice a day, the other days it's once a day. Wonder if I should let it ride and see if any of them start showing adverse effects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FarmerTy Posted December 15, 2015 Share Posted December 15, 2015 I'd let it ride and see what happens. I'd also keep your fish population lower... I think that's the issue with my tank... I'm heavily stocked which just gives them more hosts once the PBT starts off the ich fest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nuxx Posted December 15, 2015 Share Posted December 15, 2015 "with no new strains of ich and no new fish hosts, a strain can burn out in 11-18 months." I saw this statement in several other posts. Lights are now ramping up and it appears that about 90% of the spots / bumps on the PBT are gone. I wonder if I'm jumping the gun too soon. All the fish are very healthy and active and will eat as much as they can get to at ever feeding. On Tues,Thurs, Sat and Sun I feed twice a day, the other days it's once a day. Wonder if I should let it ride and see if any of them start showing adverse effects. To me, not worth it to tear everything down and hope 72 days in long enough. Lots of studies have shown way over 100 days is needed... I think a huge issue with tangs especially Acanthurus species are tank size and tang load. In Lanai while snorkeling I saw the largest Achilles Tangs I've ever seen. They also could cover endless spans of ocean in no time. Putting them in even a 10 foot tank could be very stressful on the fish. Zebrasomas for example are not big swimmers and will feel less stressed in smaller tanks. Also at Molokini it was insane at how strong of a current Achilles were at home in. Can't really duplicate that at home lol We also spotted a large Achilles while scuba diving at a wharf in Maui and it was zipping up and down the wharf at incredible speeds, definitely in more of a rush than any other fish around. Remember with PBT, they are schooling fish. Being alone might cause them stress and be behind their aggressiveness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimbo662 Posted December 15, 2015 Author Share Posted December 15, 2015 Yeah, no more fish for me...the last of my stock is in the QT right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimbo662 Posted December 15, 2015 Author Share Posted December 15, 2015 I've got 4 tangs (pbt, yellow, sailfin, yellow eye kole). The PBT was a little bossy when he first went in, him and the yellow eye went in together, other two were already in. Now he shows no sign of agressiveness or bullying and they all swim around together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nuxx Posted December 15, 2015 Share Posted December 15, 2015 I've got 4 tangs (pbt, yellow, sailfin, yellow eye kole). In a 75?!?! I have 4 tangs in a 470 and there is aggression... I'd get rid of the PBT and Sailfin. It's iffy on the Kole and Yellow in a 75. You'll never get ahead with those fish and ich in your sized tank. Way too much stress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimbo662 Posted December 15, 2015 Author Share Posted December 15, 2015 no, in a 175. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nuxx Posted December 15, 2015 Share Posted December 15, 2015 no, in a 175. Gotcha. I'd still remove one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimbo662 Posted December 15, 2015 Author Share Posted December 15, 2015 no, in a 175. Gotcha. I'd still remove one. These are my four favorite. I've got the tank set up peninsula style with swimming room down both sides and lots of open cave throughout the rock work. None of them show any signs of aggression toward each other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FarmerTy Posted December 15, 2015 Share Posted December 15, 2015 I've had a different experience with tang aggression... being that they were all introduced together for the most part and having only a 215-gallon and 125-gallon, I think the ample but not overly large tank gave them enough room to not feel cramped but not enough room to stake out their own little piece of the pie. I think if you're seeing aggression in your 470-gallon, it's because it's so big that each tang has set up a territory and will defend it as best as possible. In Jimbo's tank, I think it'll work like my tanks and the tang populations I kept. Large enough to not feel cramped but not too large that territories will be established and defended. I will say that the sailfin will probably have to go to a bigger tank 5-8 years down the line as they can get up to 18" long but probably fine for now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimbo662 Posted December 15, 2015 Author Share Posted December 15, 2015 WHAT??? A sailfin can get that big?????????????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nuxx Posted December 15, 2015 Share Posted December 15, 2015 LOL yeah I know... that's why I'm trying to add more fish... I totally agree that my tanks needs a higher fish load to lower aggression. Sort of like cichlids. Got kind of lazy while doing Coral Imports and didn't add one fish that whole time. Have 5 in QT right now. There are 2-3 more tangs I'd like to add, but they would be down the line. Two of them would need to be if I can get in on a Mauritius order and just pay the collectors price plus transshipping costs. No way I'm paying even wholesale on these fish haha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FarmerTy Posted December 15, 2015 Share Posted December 15, 2015 Alright, how about 15.7" being the largest recorded sailfin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimbo662 Posted December 15, 2015 Author Share Posted December 15, 2015 Yeah...I don't need something like that in my tank! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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