Sascha D. Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 You guys are smart and I need your help. First a little background into the problem. I'm falling deeper and deeper in the SPS zone. I need an ATO and I need to start dosing Ca. Before I go out and buy more equipment I thought I would see if I can plan for the future and possibly consolidate some things. I currently use a Coralife digital temp meter, standard API test kits for the basics, Hanna for Ca and Alk, Coralife digital power center for my day/night light timers and I topoff manually. I don't use a heater or chiller. The JBJ is $63 on sale right now, Reefkeeper controllers start at about $279, and Apex Jr. starts at $240. The problem is that I can't tell which is a better option because I can't tell what the controllers really do. From what I can see, each one can monitor pH, temp, light timing, and ATO pumps. I know that people use them to control CaRx, which might come in handy later. I've heard of people using them for wave makers; cool but probably unneccessary since I have WP40's. Lastly, I know that the controllers can shut down your pumps if a leak is detected. So, if I bought the Apex Jr. @ $240 instead of the JBJ then it would be a difference of $177. I would still need a pump and float no matter which one of these I bought, so we'll scratch that cost for now. I could probably sell the power center for $20, which takes me down to $157. So what do I gain for this price? The ability to upgrade to a CaRx and insurance in case of a flood? Do I need a breakout box for an additional $39 to run the ATO? As I understand it neither of these units connect to the internet, so I would need to spend $125 on a net interface? Thanks in advance to anyone who responds! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
victoly Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 You do need a breakout box if you want to wire in floats. You're paying for remote monitoring and notification, and for some people it's worth it. You can also control your wp if you get te full apex or a vdm with the apex jr. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimbo662 Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 with the apex you can either connect it directly to your router or buy a wireless adapter which is what moste people do...it has a built in ethernet connection. Apex now has Fusion wich you can access from anywhere and monitor / control your system...it's in "the cloud" now. I've got mine set to control lights in the stand when I open the doors. It's also hooked up to a battery back up so it emails and texts me when power goes off and comes back on. I have leak detectors inside the sump and on the floor behind it so no matter if my sump springs a leak or the plumbing / external overflow does it'll shut down the pump and skimmer. check out their forum to see what others are using it for. http://forum.neptunesystems.com/forum.php Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jestep Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 Are you planning on dosing 2 part or another method? Pretty much has been covered, but the degree of control is amazing with an apex. I dose Ca and Alk every 20 minutes for about 3 seconds per dose. Can change the lighting schedule in about 5 seconds. Outlets can be dependant on other outlets, such as when the return pump is off for a water change, the heater and skimmer automatically turn off. You can also completely automate tasks with one. I'm sure you could program in a fully automated water change if you had the right float sensors and pumps hooked up. You also have failsafes with one. If my heater or chiller fails on, the controller kills them before they nuke the tank. Temp gets too high and lights are automatically shut off to further reduce heat. Stuff like this is basic functionality and is a huge benefit IMO. As far as actually needing one, definitely not. You can get a good ATO for $100 - $150, and get programmable dosing pumps for another $150 and you're good to go. Just having it all controllable in one place is a huge convenience, but definitely not needed for a successful tank. I still use a Tunze osmolator ATO. I have ebay peristaltic pumps for dosing. Also not a fan of the JBJ ATO though. I'd find a used osmolator before the JBJ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Mlaw Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 I have two of the JBJ ATOs and I'm okay with them. Not great but do the job. I would probably invest in something a little more robust next time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard L Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 I'd say that, for a good chunk of tanks in the club, a beefy controller like the Apex is more of a luxury item. The controller, modules, dosing pumps, sensors, probes, cables, etc. can quickly add $500 to $1000 to a system. There is a tipping point where, IMO, its kind of silly not to have one. Soon, if not already, you'll have a 150 gallon tank full of pricey corals and fish in a precariously balanced system that is impossible to personally monitor 24 hours a day. A controller is then a cheap insurance policy Another thing to consider is that SPS need stability and will quickly RTN if one of your parameters isn't steady. A controller like the Apex can make smart decisions when dosing like holding off adding Alk until your natural pH swing is on its way down. Lastly, adding a controller can be daunting with the archaic programming language and all the gear. I found the members here on ARC to be an extremely helpful resource. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FarmerTy Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 It just makes life easier and makes your tank that much more stable. 24-hr monitoring is a small price to pay when you have $1,000's invested in coral and livestock. When I used to travel a lot for work, I'd literally have $100-200 of coral die on me each time I left from the instability of regular topoffs and dosing. I'm no math major, but it didn't take me long to realize paying $400-500 for a complete Apex system to circumvent all the death is worth it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sascha D. Posted April 23, 2014 Author Share Posted April 23, 2014 Thank you all for the input. The tank is still young and I don't have as much livestock as some of you do, but I like to save money and I like to plan ahead. If I'm going to need one eventually then I'd like to get it now to make it easier on me. The reason I'm considering it is because I imagine I will need a calcium reactor eventually and will need a way to administer it. At the moment I'm going to start dosing kalk in the ATO water until I need the reactor. I would definately need it to control the ATO, lights, temp insurance and (later) the reactor. Sending texts about the system status would be a huge draw and I would say one of the major reasons to buy a controller. So it looks like I would either need the full version at $500+ cables and such or the Jr. + the breakout box at $400ish. On the off chance I could get it used, then I'm definitely looking at $200-300 at the minimum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jestep Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 I would definately need it to control the ATO, lights, temp insurance and (later) the reactor. Sending texts about the system status would be a huge draw and I would say one of the major reasons to buy a controller. So it looks like I would either need the full version at $500+ cables and such or the Jr. + the breakout box at $400ish. On the off chance I could get it used, then I'm definitely looking at $200-300 at the minimum. You might still be able to find the apex lite which is the full without VDM for pump or LED dimming, and it doesn't have inputs for a second PH/ORP probe. If you think you'll just do 2 part Ca and Alk dosing, the lite is fine. If you want to do an actual calcium reactor, you'll need the full. Just because of the lack of outlets, I would skip the Jr. I ended up buying another powerstrip for the lite. I can't imagine not needing another one if using the Jr. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FarmerTy Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 +1 to what Jestep said. I'd be hunting for an Apex Lite instead of a Jr. You'll exhaust the 4 controllable ports in a heartbeart and end up buying the additional EB8 for $150 anyways so you might as well get the unit that already has 8 ports. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
victoly Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 i meant lite not jr, excuse my switchup Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sascha D. Posted April 23, 2014 Author Share Posted April 23, 2014 I would have to try and find it used. BRS, Salty Critters, Aquacave and all the sites that came up on the web search say Discontinued. Even Ebay didn't have any for sale. From what I did see about what it used to sell for I should expect around $360. What about a Reefkeeper or other brand equal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jestep Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 Reefkeepers work just fine, I've owned both. Can't comment or reef angel. IMO the ease of use and interface of Apex make it well worth the extra cost. Reefkeepers are a pain even with the net module compared to any apex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sascha D. Posted April 24, 2014 Author Share Posted April 24, 2014 So the Apex Jr. ($240) can connect to the internet via cable, but can it connect to wifi or would I need to buy a wireless module ($124)? I would need to get the PM1 module ($84) to control the pH probe ($29) and the break out box for the ATO ($40). Of course I would need the leak detector module ($29). By this point I'm already over the price of the full Apex. It's too bad they don't make the lite anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jestep Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 None of them can connect directly to wifi. The Wireless module is for controlling vortech pumps. If you want to connect via wifi instead of ethernet, these work really well: http://www.tp-link.com/en/products/details/?model=TL-WR702N Cost $25 or so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sascha D. Posted April 24, 2014 Author Share Posted April 24, 2014 Thanks. I would definitely have to be on wifi since my modem is across the room. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimbo662 Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 Everyone uses one of these. Very easy to set up. http://www.bestbuy.com/site/ieee-802-11n-300-mbps-wireless-bridge/1002457.p;jsessionid=41EB0C6C8B9EE5DA7259E5A8126537A4.bbolsp-app02-114?id=1218207316028&skuId=1002457&st=netgear&cp=3&lp=9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sascha D. Posted April 24, 2014 Author Share Posted April 24, 2014 Whats the difference between a bridge a router and a modem? I have a modem hooked up and a router that is not hooked up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
victoly Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 Bridge in the apex context allows you to connect an ethernet connection to wifi:Modem --> wireless router <----- wireless bridge <------ apex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Planeden Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 a bridge basically gives you an ethernet hub so you can hard wire network cable things into it. so, i have one for my entrainment center that pulls wifi from the air and i plugged my DVD player into it by cable since it is not wifi enabled. it'd be like plugging a regular phone into a cordless handset and effectively have a cordless regular phone. although, that'd be kinda stupid, but the analogy works i think. a modem reads the signal from the provider and translates it into home network. a router takes the signal from the modem and lets you split it into different computers (wifi or cable). i think a router is the same thing that used to be called a hub. but, perhaps there is a difference that more computer literate people than i am know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sascha D. Posted May 13, 2014 Author Share Posted May 13, 2014 I've been reading a lot about the different controllers and Digital Aquatics have AWFUL reviews. I mean I expect every product to get a few 1's and some 5's here and there, but the Reefkeepers make people genuinely unhappy. So I think I agree that Apex is probably the best option. Will the Jr. run a calcium reactor, my LEDs and an ATO or do I need a full version? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
victoly Posted May 13, 2014 Share Posted May 13, 2014 depends on if you want to dim up/down your LEDs or just have on/off functionality. If you want to be able to dim, you need the full apex or jr + VDM. The other kicker is the jr only has one pH port. Meaning you wouldnt be able to monitor tank pH unless you added one of the other apex add-on boxes (assuming you were running a CaRx). If you're just planning on runing the ATO.com, you dont necessarily need more than a JR. However if you want to add in floats, you will need to purchase or DIY a breakout box which you can wire switches to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sascha D. Posted May 13, 2014 Author Share Posted May 13, 2014 Thanks Victoly. I would run CaRx, so does that mean if I got the Jr. then it would run on the one pH port and the interface wouldn't show me what that probe is reading? I guess that wouldn't be a problem as long as the CaRx is functioning correctly. The autotopoff.com system has the floats and the wires already. As far as the website says all you need is a return pump and some line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FarmerTy Posted May 13, 2014 Share Posted May 13, 2014 Sascha, if you got the Jr, you would assuredly need to buy another module to connect a 2nd pH probe so that you had one to use to control the CaRX itself and the other to monitor the tank's pH value in case something went awry and it was depressing it too much. I guess I should reword, you don't need to but it would be highly advised. You could get away with only using one ph probe to monitor and control your CaRX but you'd have no idea what your pH of your tank is at. I don't even bother with floats and wires for auto topoff. I just run a time function and have it come on 4 times a day. If you were to do that, all you'd need is a pump and an open power port on your EB4 that came with the Jr. The problem is you only get 4 ports with the Jr. and I'm going to guess 7 times out of 10, you'll end up needing more power ports. With that, you'll need to shell out $150 anyways for the EB8 (which has 8 power ports). That gets you that much closer to the Full Apex and with it you'll get a 2nd pH port and variable dimming built-in. The variable dimming will allow for control of some LED fixtures and I use it personally for controlling my Jaebo pumps. I can ramp them up and down, set wave modes, set flush modes, etc. using the variable dimming ports. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimbo662 Posted May 13, 2014 Share Posted May 13, 2014 Yeah, what Ty said...I filled my EB8 up in no time and ended up ordering a 2nd one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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