Poll - Salt Preferences

[subsea]

At the risk of inciting riots and fisticuffs, I am asking for opinions on a very delicate subject:

I've had some problems with inconsistency with the salt mix I've been using and have been thinking of switching brands. I'm getting irregular Ca, and Alk reading each time I mix a batch, and my LPS are not really happy with the results. So I'd like to take a poll to try to get a consensus on what brands you guys and gals have had the most success with.

I'm currently using Brand X, and I mix 5 - 10 gallons at a time using RO/DI water. I have Softies and LPS in my tank, which is pretty much a lagoon biotope. The LPS are not happy. Zoas, Palys, and 'Shrooms are doing fine.

Seriously, I really do want your opinions!

Thanks - Steve

Steve,

Did your post accomplish its goal?

Patrick

[ramsey]

I've used probably 6-7 different salts over the years. They're all the same IMO with one exception: ESV. This salt has never precipitated while mixing and is always spot on with parameters. I've also noticed that with other salt mixes, things might be a little ticked off after a large water change. With ESV, it doesn't matter how much water I change, everything acts like nothing happened. There are a couple of downsides though. It's expensive. At around $100 for 200g, it's over twice what IO costs. The other downside, it comes in four parts. The first couple of times I mixed a batch, this was painful and I wondered what I got myself into. However, it's simple now. I do recommend a digital scale though.

With that said, I'll be using ESV in my 38g SPS tank, but I'll likely use IO in my 185g. Cost is the biggest factor in this decision.

I just wanted to throw that out there because, while I always read reviews about salt mixes that were all the rage, only one gave me a noticeable difference. It wasn't growth or color, but lack of stress when doing a water change.

[FloridaBoy]

Thanks everyone for your input - it's been really helpfull. I think we can consider the poll closed.

Steve

[Jpowell490]

There is a difference in salt, make no mistake. My top 3 are Tropic Marin Bio Actif, Seachem Aqua Vitro Salinity, and Red Sea Coral Pro.

[Neon Reefer]

I think the comman factor is many reefers use IO and RS - RS Pro. With that said I will say that I use RS-Pro and am quite happy with it. Never used IO, but in the past I used Tropic Marin and also found it was good. Expensive but good.

I think Sherita and others have it right when they say "salt is salt." Well mostly right anyway. I think that is too say any salt will work, but will have differing resullts based on a number of factors the most prevelant being the make up of the salt to include levels of Ca, Alk, Mg and other trace elemnts. Further other relevant factors is how you run your tank and the different consumption levels of these elements due to differeing livestock in the aquarium and the frequency of water changes. All of which can be managed thru dosing.

Example: Someone running a softie tank and does 5% water changes a week may never need to dose and can manage with simple IO salt. Someone else who runs a stony tank crowded wiith Ca / Alk hungry corals but chooses not to dose may manage well with a salt higher in levels of Ca / Alk and bigger water changes. Others like myself who hate to throw out good water and stick to a rigid total dosing schedule may do well with a middle of the road salt as far as elements go. IE Red Sea Pro.

So really it is up to you as a reefer to decide what works best for you as any of the salt products will work if they are managed into your system. The most important factor as always is consistancy. Findf something thta works and stick with it.

[Wade]

I think this is a great point and spot on. It's all a matter of how you manage it. If you're atthe point where your stock level requires you to dose, then you'll dose according the levels being consumed regardless of what salt you use. So if I'm using Tropic Marin that starts out with a higher Ca level, then I'll dose less then I would if I'm using IO with a lower Ca level. Either way i have to dose. If I'm using the Tropi Marin, maybe I won't have to start dosing as soon as i would if I used the Io, but eventually I will have to dose as my coral grow unless I'm changing water very frequently.

[Planeden]

it's funny, though. if you look at the tables from the lab tests, IO has better Ca levels than any of the better salts. higher than RSCP in almost every category (to be fair this includes the nitrogens and ammonia most of us don't want). but i have just been looking at averages of the two tests.

jestep. i think this explains why they used a fixed amount of salt. to find the consistency of the results when putting in a set amount. if they tried to adjust the salt to a salinity it may have hidden some of that. it would be interesting to see if matching salinity (by adding more salt mix) results in consistent added mineral levels.

i think that this has convinced me to go back to IO, though. of course, at the rate i go through it i have a 6 supply right now.

[FloridaBoy]

IO is what I've had inconsistant readings with. I'm starting to think I just got a bad bag, and or mixing small quantities magnifies any inconsistent distribution of components within the bag. (Yes, notice the use of the word "bag" - small timer here!). Because I had such a small tank, I was only mixing up small portions (2.5 gal) at a time. If you go through all the responses, everyone who has had good results with IO seem to mix a large batch at a time. I may start mixing bigger batches to keep on hand.

[ramsey]

IO is what I've had inconsistant readings with. I'm starting to think I just got a bad bag, and or mixing small quantities magnifies any inconsistent distribution of components within the bag. (Yes, notice the use of the word "bag" - small timer here!). Because I had such a small tank, I was only mixing up small portions (2.5 gal) at a time. If you go through all the responses, everyone who has had good results with IO seem to mix a large batch at a time. I may start mixing bigger batches to keep on hand.

I've heard of people mixing (shaking?) the salt up before using it because of that exact issue.

[Sherita]

I had quite a conversation with several folks at Dallas Macna about the inconsistent readings and aggravations that we see using boxed salts. The general consensus I got was, mix it a few days ahead of time, and add a small powerhead/pump to the holding container to circulate the mixture.

I keep 100g of mixed saltwater on hand at most all times. It's stored in two containers......a 40g brute, and a humongo plastic barrel. The brute has a small mag pump on the bottom, and a korallia 1 running in it. Humongo barrel has some no name pump that will shoot water WAY up in the air if I don't have the barrel full (needless to say, I keep the barrel full). They may sit and circulate for as little as two days, or as long as two weeks. I do substantial water changes, and using the "cured saltwater" method, I never have anything get angry or upset, or slime, when I do changes. YMMV, but I have found that this works very well for me. Added bonus, the heat from the circulating pumps warms the water nicely, and for me at least, it's always close to tank temp.

[Bpb]

Started with IO, switched to reef crystals. I'm not the most experienced hobbysit, so in my entirety of the hobby I've used a bout 100 gallons worth of Instant Ocean. Then 200 gallons of Reef Crystals, and now about 75 gallons worth of a 50/50 mixture between Reef Crystals and instant Ocean. Jeez when you look at how little salt I've used since my first day in the hobby I feel like a total noob. Anyhow. I agree with sherita. Name brand salt is name brand salt. Some will have slightly higher or lower numbers of some parameters from brand to brand, and even batch to batch. Big deal. The overall percentages most of us change make those fairly irrelevant. I mix to 1.026, and aside from my recent ATO pump failure and parameters plummeting, keep 7.0 dKH, 450 ppm calcium, and 1300 magnesium. Roughly. Once every couple months I'll dose a bit of magnesium, but otherwise my Ca and ALK stay balanced. Last time I tested a fresh batch of my 50/50 mix, I got around 10 DKH, 450 ppm calcium, and about 1300 ppm magnesium. If it aint broke dont fix it.

[ramsey]

I had quite a conversation with several folks at Dallas Macna about the inconsistent readings and aggravations that we see using boxed salts. The general consensus I got was, mix it a few days ahead of time, and add a small powerhead/pump to the holding container to circulate the mixture.

I keep 100g of mixed saltwater on hand at most all times. It's stored in two containers......a 40g brute, and a humongo plastic barrel. The brute has a small mag pump on the bottom, and a korallia 1 running in it. Humongo barrel has some no name pump that will shoot water WAY up in the air if I don't have the barrel full (needless to say, I keep the barrel full). They may sit and circulate for as little as two days, or as long as two weeks. I do substantial water changes, and using the "cured saltwater" method, I never have anything get angry or upset, or slime, when I do changes. YMMV, but I have found that this works very well for me. Added bonus, the heat from the circulating pumps warms the water nicely, and for me at least, it's always close to tank temp.

That's what I've done in the past as well. The only problem I had with most mixes when I did this is calcium buildup on everything. Otherwise, I think this is a good plan and one I'll likely follow for the 185. As I said, ESV is the only salt mix I've ever had good results with when I mixed it and used it right away. I just wish it was about 50% cheaper.

On a related note, I just got a bucket of IO for less than $50 delivered to my door two days after ordering on Amazon.

[Neon Reefer]

Truth be told I use very little Salts whether for water changes or for dosing, so really any salt would work for me as I mange thru dosing and once I acheive my balance it never changes much I utilize some Ca and Alk salts for balancing system once a week but other than that none.. I have seen my best results in coral growth and color with the stability of of a rigid dosing system which includes utilizing Acetates instead of salts for Ca and Alk and utilizing trace, amino and Iodide for a complete dosing schedule. I also avod all the costly and time consuming equipment maintance by utlizing my ATO to dose the Acetates as you can concentrate them in RODI as much as you want and there is none of the salt problems on the equipment. Only trick is to monitor your tank usage of fresh water. If it changes then your dosing will change. But in a stable tank enviroment it changes very little during the year. Actually use more top off in winter when the house heater is running. Goes from 5 gallons per week to 6.5 which means I change the 5 gal bucket of dosed RODI ~1.5 days sooner so i just dose ~25% less. The math is pretty easy. Also great to help maintain a steady SG level as there is never any SG creep up. Only time params get a little bit of a swing is when i do my monthly vaccuum and use about 8 G of saltwater to do it. I hate to thriow out good water and since i have no exportation needs thru water changes as NO3 and PO4 are not an issue that means I use < 100 gals of saltwater a year and ~350 gals of RODI per year. Probably < $200 per year cost in all salts and water. And that price is retail as I refuse to invest in the headache of maintaining an RODI system and mixing salts. Ugg! There is no fun in working hard. And purchasing $10 worth of water every two weeks gives me a good excuse to go into RCA and check things out. Now thats fun IMHO.

[ramsey]

Truth be told I use very little Salts whether for water changes or for dosing, so really any salt would work for me as I mange thru dosing and once I acheive my balance it never changes much I utilize some Ca and Alk salts for balancing system once a week but other than that none.. I have seen my best results in coral growth and color with the stability of of a rigid dosing system which includes utilizing Acetates instead of salts for Ca and Alk and utilizing trace, amino and Iodide for a complete dosing schedule. I also avod all the costly and time consuming equipment maintance by utlizing my ATO to dose the Acetates as you can concentrate them in RODI as much as you want and there is none of the salt problems on the equipment. Only trick is to monitor your tank usage of fresh water. If it changes then your dosing will change. But in a stable tank enviroment it changes very little during the year. Actually use more top off in winter when the house heater is running. Goes from 5 gallons per week to 6.5 which means I change the 5 gal bucket of dosed RODI ~1.5 days sooner so i just dose ~25% less. The math is pretty easy. Also great to help maintain a steady SG level as there is never any SG creep up. Only time params get a little bit of a swing is when i do my monthly vaccuum and use about 8 G of saltwater to do it. I hate to thriow out good water and since i have no exportation needs thru water changes as NO3 and PO4 are not an issue that means I use < 100 gals of saltwater a year and ~350 gals of RODI per year. Probably < $200 per year cost in all salts and water. And that price is retail as I refuse to invest in the headache of maintaining an RODI system and mixing salts. Ugg! There is no fun in working hard. And purchasing $10 worth of water every two weeks gives me a good excuse to go into RCA and check things out. Now thats fun IMHO.

How do you avoid accumulation of certain elements that can build up and be toxic such as heavy metals? Over time, I would think they would build up by entering into the system via dosing chemicals, fish food, etc. No water changes seems pretty awesome though.

[Neon Reefer]

How do you avoid accumulation of certain elements that can build up and be toxic such as heavy metals? Over time, I would think they would build up by entering into the system via dosing chemicals, fish food, etc. No water changes seems pretty awesome though. Answer: There are some very interesting articles on this available I have read, as well as bouncing this exact question off the Chemistry Ghurus on RC forumn. None have a definitive answer and there is not a single concensus. After listening carefully to all the information this is what i have come away with, and remember this is only my educated opinion. Every living creature in your system from fish to the inverts and down to the bacteria all need and consume these trace elements. Even copper is needed for life...yes copper, but only in the smallest of amounts measured in decimals of ppb. With that said the consumption of these trace (metals) elements must be replaced in some fashion. This is accomplished by what we add to the systems. New salts thru water exchange is the most comman way to replenish these trace elements right. But in addition to this we replinish them thru feeding methods. All foods have metals in them from brine and mysis to pellets and flakes, as well as coral foods like Freenzy ect... The trick is to balance these replacements against the usage. This is not easily done as we cannot measure for these super trace metals (elements). But we continue to feed our systems fish and corals and many of us have found that coral feeding is important in some manner to sustain good growth and color. There are many approaches to this. One is to suppliment trace by water changes. Now I think your specefic question refers that thru water changes one would be exporting any build up of these trace metals, but the reality is one is actually supplimenting them by adding new salts to the system. I can try to muttle thru some example thru the math but my super computor is down. Ha! But say copper exists at 0.05 ppb in your system and you do 20% monthly water changes. One would think you would reduce the 0.05 by 20% or 0.01 to a final number of 0.04 ppb. But in reality it is not accurate as you are replacing with a salt containing these same trace elements. So are you supplimening them or exporting them. No one really knows for sure but the only consensus I found is that the amounts are so small (1/100th of a single PPB reduction in this example) that in a system crowded with living creatures the consumption of this trace from the small amount of water supporting them is far greater than in nature. Think about the abundance of water supporting a natural reef. It is seemingly limitless. Therefore it is easier to conclude there is more replacement of trace thru a water change than an exportation of these trace elements. I cannot find reason to beleive they are building up! My method is simply to suppliment in the same manner but without utilizing the salts in a water change. I am not re-inventing the wheel here as many reefers do the samething. But remember it is all about balance. Some reefers simply suppliment thru heavy coral feeding which provides all the trace needed without water changes. I personally do not like that approach as foods also increases the PO4 and NO3 in your tank where pure supplimentation does not My method is a balanced approach with everything but skimming and carbon. I skim constantly with an oversized skimmer which removes trace in the organics it removes as well as the carbon removing the trace. Medium bio load and fish feeding, medium light coral feeding thru foods IE Coral Freenzy and and an acetate suppliment which includes trace and amino acids. I further suppliment with a Hard Coral suppliment and Iodide but at 50% of the recommended doage. My meaureable params stay rock solid and I have no need to export water for excessive nutients.. Maintance on a tank is a lot like running WINDOWS on your PC. There is always more than one way to acheive the same results. My way is thru moderation. Everything in my system is a moderation of one sort of another, except my skimming an dcarbon use My 83 Gal system consists of a mixed reef heavy in Stony corals with 9 small gobies and Wrasse a very small clean up crew with 90 lbs of great rock and NO sand, just an inch of Crushed Altantic Coral which i vaccummn once a month. Works for me!. But it may not for you depending on your other mitigating factors..

[ramsey]

Thanks for the reply! Very good info! It makes perfect sense to me and reminds me of the balling method in some aspects. How long have you been doing this?

[Jpowell490]

If I were going to dose, which I probably will in the near future, I would run ultra put salt. Regular IO, or the ESV mix. I would want all the salt to have just the base elements because I would be controlling the rest of the additives with dosing. No dosing, my salt choice above.

[FarmerTy]

Most know I haven't changed my water in 3 years. I use a CaRX, GFO, carbon, and biopellets and skim heavily. I dose the occasional amino acids and iodine and thats pretty much it.

I run a heavy bioload and my tank is predominantly SPS.

I have not suffered any symptoms of accumulation of anything toxic so far but who knows if my tank is a ticking timebomb. I'll take the risk in light of my despise of water changes.

But just to stick to the original post, I use Coralife because RCA gets it cheap. :-)

[JamesL]

Reef Crystals here (when I do water changes *cough*). Most of my saltwater career it has been Instant Ocean or Reef Crystals. I have dabbled in a few other brands due to sales, but always end up back at what I normally use.

[subsea]

How do you avoid accumulation of certain elements that can build up and be toxic such as heavy metals? Over time, I would think they would build up by entering into the system via dosing chemicals, fish food, etc. No water changes seems pretty awesome though. Answer: There are some very interesting articles on this available I have read, as well as bouncing this exact question off the Chemistry Ghurus on RC forumn. None have a definitive answer and there is not a single concensus. After listening carefully to all the information this is what i have come away with, and remember this is only my educated opinion. Every living creature in your system from fish to the inverts and down to the bacteria all need and consume these trace elements. Even copper is needed for life...yes copper, but only in the smallest of amounts measured in decimals of ppb. With that said the consumption of these trace (metals) elements must be replaced in some fashion. This is accomplished by what we add to the systems. New salts thru water exchange is the most comman way to replenish these trace elements right. But in addition to this we replinish them thru feeding methods. All foods have metals in them from brine and mysis to pellets and flakes, as well as coral foods like Freenzy ect... The trick is to balance these replacements against the usage. This is not easily done as we cannot measure for these super trace metals (elements). But we continue to feed our systems fish and corals and many of us have found that coral feeding is important in some manner to sustain good growth and color. There are many approaches to this. One is to suppliment trace by water changes. Now I think your specefic question refers that thru water changes one would be exporting any build up of these trace metals, but the reality is one is actually supplimenting them by adding new salts to the system. I can try to muttle thru some example thru the math but my super computor is down. Ha! But say copper exists at 0.05 ppb in your system and you do 20% monthly water changes. One would think you would reduce the 0.05 by 20% or 0.01 to a final number of 0.04 ppb. But in reality it is not accurate as you are replacing with a salt containing these same trace elements. So are you supplimening them or exporting them. No one really knows for sure but the only consensus I found is that the amounts are so small (1/100th of a single PPB reduction in this example) that in a system crowded with living creatures the consumption of this trace from the small amount of water supporting them is far greater than in nature. Think about the abundance of water supporting a natural reef. It is seemingly limitless. Therefore it is easier to conclude there is more replacement of trace thru a water change than an exportation of these trace elements. I cannot find reason to beleive they are building up! My method is simply to suppliment in the same manner but without utilizing the salts iln a water change. I am not re-inventing the wheel here as many reefers do the samething. But remember it is all about balance. Some reefers simply suppliment thru heavy coral feeding which provides all the trace needed without water changes. I personally do not like that approach as foods also increases the PO4 and NO3 in your tank where pure supplimentation does not My method is a balanced approach with everything but skimming and carbon. I skim constantly with an oversized skimmer which removes trace in the organics it removes as well as the carbon removing the trace. Medium bio load and fish feeding, medium light coral feeding thru foods IE Coral Freenzy and and an acetate suppliment which includes trace and amino acids. I further suppliment with a Hard Coral suppliment and Iodide but at 50% of the recommended doage. My meaureable params stay rock solid and I have no need to export water for excessive nutients.. Maintance on a tank is a lot like running WINDOWS on your PC. There is always more than one way to acheive the same results. My way is thru moderation. Everything in my system is a moderation of one sort of another, except my skimming an dcarbon use My 83 Gal system consists of a mixed reef heavy in Stony corals with 9 small gobies and Wrasse a very small clean up crew with 90 lbs of great rock and NO sand, just an inch of Crushed Altantic Coral which i vaccummn once a month. Works for me!. But it may not for you depending on your other mitigating factors..

Dr Ron Schmick would not agree with you on not accumulating heavy metals. How long have you been maintaining your system in this manner? I must admit that I have never heard of the protocol that you are using, Obviously, I agree with the premis of water change as I have not changed water in 12 years with Jaubert Plenum on top and mud/macro refugium on bottom. Untill recently, heavy feeding was the only nutrient input. I now have included kelp concentrate which includes all trace minerals except iodine and phosphate. This tank has never seen a skimmer but I rely heavily on activated carbon. With respect to nitrate and phosphate, that is mostly handled by nutrient recycling with bacteria, micro fauna and fana, magcro algae and coral. Nutrient export is accomplished by macro harvesting to use as compost for tomatoes or to sell as product.

For certain, there is more than one way to operate a reef tank.

Patrick

PS. I should add that I encourage evaporation with 2 gallon a day of makeup required. Makeup water comes straight out of the ground from Middle Trinity Aquifer which is the equivalent of lime water.