My LED Journey and Experiences

[Planeden]

I don't know that you can draw that correlation (i.e., reds/greens killed his tank) when he went from panorama pros to Hydras at 90% RB. The dude just nuked his tank because he started off too high.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you that an EXTREMELY sparse number of R/G LEDs may be useful for coloration, but achieving good balance/spread/blend with point source like LEDs is tough. That's why i think people like kessils/lumias so much is that they're all packed so close that it's a much better blend than the DIY units. It's one of the reasons I went back to a 20k radium

i was wondering the same thing. he seemed to get a lot of advice on acclimating, but there was no followup on whether it helped. although, maybe there was no update because he trashed the hydras.

another thing i'm wondering about his levels is what percentage of the power is each color. in the sols, the par reads pretty consistent across the specturm where each color at full intensity is about 100 par (example, correcting for blue readings). i imagine that comes from an even number of LEDs for each color. but do the hydras have the same number of UVs as it does RB? is cranking the UV up to 40% going to be "half as bright" as the blues at 80%.

anyway, i think i'm still in the wait and see phase for a bit. i'm not anxious to spend another few hundred dollars and do the upgrade. especially since we seem to be at a point of LEDs where things are being learned and going to be changing quickly.

[mFrame]

Thought you might like to read this. Pay close attention to the red and greens. Also, Pay close attention to his corals dying. AI Hydra, no way.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2355337

It's a proven that any radical light change without proper acclimation can kill or bleach corals, as those of us who have used PC, T5, and Metal Halides before LEDs can tell you. I think that a knowledgeable aquarist can grow corals with just about any setup given that they manage their expectations. That said, I think you brushed off the last link based upon the statement at the end of the article and the depth in that particular experiment. There's quite a bit of science behind Dana's research vs the referenced AI Hydra anecdotal experience. Interested parties should check out the depth of his other articles on the topic such as

How to Make Corals Colorful, Part One: New Information, With Particular Attention to Blue-Green Fluorescent Pigments

How to Make Corals More Colorful, Part Two: New Information! Green Fluorescent Pigments, Pigment Clades, and Photoconversion from Green to Orange/Re

How to Make Corals More Colorful Part Three: New Information: Red Fluorescent Pigments: DsRed-type

Aquarium Corals: Making Corals Colorful: 'Kaede' Fluorescent Proteins

While I defer to your experience with the different fixtures and appreciate your input regarding each, I think you've oversimplified your comments in regards to benefits/detriments of red and green. Readers should keep in mind that having red and green LEDs doesn't mean that the particular corals they have use the light as is, and Dana's latest research actually shows corals adapting to not only the light provided but developing new fluorescence over time.

In the end I don't think that hobbyists are nearly concerned about what the spectrum of their LEDs is nearly as much as they're interested in how their corals respond and appear under the light.

[victoly]

the flip side of that argument mike is that we can't be certain that the emitters that we use are accurately representing the exceptionally discrete subsets of light that get a protein to look pretty. In other words, just because we have a a "red" LED does not necessarily mean that there is a sufficient quantity or quality of light at XYZ wavelength to get a particular protein to flouresce. At this point LEDs are as much art as science, and this is coming from a former member of the LED or Bust bandwagon.

[mFrame]

the flip side of that argument mike is that we can't be certain that the emitters that we use are accurately representing the exceptionally discrete subsets of light that get a protein to look pretty. In other words, just because we have a a "red" LED does not necessarily mean that there is a sufficient quantity or quality of light at XYZ wavelength to get a particular protein to flouresce. At this point LEDs are as much art as science, and this is coming from a former member of the LED or Bust bandwagon.

I absolutely agree, there's still a ton left to be figured out and tweaked for years if not decades to come. There's little remaining doubt that corals can be grown under LED, but still plenty of difference of opinion over comparisons between LED/T5/MH/Plasma, etc. For years we bought bulbs marked as 12k, 14k, 20k, etc, but we all know that variations from manufacturers meant that you were only in the ballpark of what you were actually receiving. For the average hobbyist it can all be baffling, which is one reason I lean toward professionally manufactured and controlled LEDs versus DIY fixtures if you're that particular about actual delivered wavelengths. Both fixtures will work, but manufactured ones can be studied and provide a reasonable assurance that you're getting what you expect. Definitely not from the advertising materials, but rather from independent reviews like Jpowell's here and other third party verification.

[Timfish]

I haven't had the chance to read all the posts on this thread so maybe I'm reitteraing something but just to throw my two cents in I would first point out the genetics of corals allows some to make as many as a dozen different fluorescing proteins so a given colony has the potential of changing it's colors significantly and as Jpowell490 pointed out in his first post it can take quite a bit of time for theses changes to take place. Second even if a coral is not using part of the spectrum for photosynthesis for it's dinoflagellates doesn't nessesarily mean it's not doing something with it (maybe for cyanobacteria). Violet chromoproteins for example are reflecting the blue and red sections of the spectrum but is absorbing the green and yellow section, we may not know yet why a coral is absorbing it but that it has chromoproteins to absorb it certainly argues it's doing something with it.

[Spacetime]

Great write up! I've had a a360w over my 24x12x12 for a few months (upgrading to 60 cube in spring) and I've been experiencing the bottom half of my sps completely bleach. This happens where the light is shadowed by branches. Any advice?

[Jpowell490]

Any shadowing will produce that. If it can't get to the light, or vice versa, then that will happen.

[Spacetime]

Guess I'll have to cut and rescape. Thinking shallow with single rocks and frags upright at 90 degrees

[htay150]

Jpowell, this was very helpful thank you.

[Bpb]

Jpowell hasn't posted on here in forever. Last I interacted with him was on reef central and he had sold off his kessils and switches to the ocean revive s026 units

[12_egg_omelette]

Threads like this is exactly why my dissertation is taking longer than I wanted to write. So much good info in here. I'd be interested to k ow his take on the nano box lights.

[nvrEnuf]

Jpowell hasn't posted on here in forever. Last I interacted with him was on reef central and he had sold off his kessils and switches to the ocean revive s026 units

That's pretty funny considering the amount of greens and reds in the revive's!

I generally tune people whom make such blanket statements as "Kessil is all I will ever have on my reef" out. They are generally talking just to hear themselves.

[FarmerTy]

Jpowell hasn't posted on here in forever. Last I interacted with him was on reef central and he had sold off his kessils and switches to the ocean revive s026 units

That's pretty funny considering the amount of greens and reds in the revive's!

I generally tune people whom make such blanket statements as "Kessil is all I will ever have on my reef" out. They are generally talking just to hear themselves.

That pretty much wrapped up 90% of my posts right there... [emoji33]

[nvrEnuf]

I've never heard you say anything half that stupid.

You may have made blanket statements like "I'm the laziest reefer that ever existed" but I've never heard something stupid like "Tangs can't be kept in a 40b" (sorry Tang police, it shouldn't be done long term...but there is nothing wrong with a 2 inch bristletooth in a 40b for a year maybe even more)

I'm not gonna go back through 3 pages and pick out all the falacies, much less even the ones in the first post alone. There is some good info in this thread, but the OP seems to homogonize fact and opinion. The sheer fact he couldn't see that there would be YEARS of progress and advancement obsoleted most of his opinion based reviews.

I am sure plenty people base purchases off customer service, as well they should. But to discredit the function of a lighting unit based on the performance of it's service staff is idiotic.

That's not to say he was well educated on lighting...he knew and probably still does way more than I do; but that does not mean the units he frowned on were crap by any standard...he even admitted 3/4 through he was wrong and didn't actually know WTF he was talking about.

It's posts like this that contribute to the high cost of this hobby - pushing people towards the highest end of gadgets. Some idiots just feel a need to have the most cutting edge stuff, and then need even more to justify it to the world. I'd have a lot less of an issue if he would have started with a disclaimer - " this is an opinion based post written by a very informed and well researched user". He got flamed on another site because he can't accept that his opinion is not fact, just opinion.

If he truely is using Revive's then the proof is in the pudding, I am fairly certain there are as many if not more green and red diodes iby percentage n that unit as any other, making him a copmlete hypocrite.

There isn't a single thing wrong with any of the units he "tested" (or in reality - "used") and every one of them grows and colors corals just fine; some better than others I am sure...but if you're not switching units every freaking 3 months I bet your corals do just fine and how would one know the difference? That's like people missing TV in the stone age!

Funny, not one pic in this post; and nobody calling him out for it. If I'd have turned my T247's to his reccomended starting settings I'd have lost most of my corals in an hour.

I usually just ignore posts like this rather than starting a yelling match; but since it's been a year or more since he has posted I suggest we place this outdated thread in the file next to the drop off tank. It's common knowledge today that the Kessil's and Radion's are top tier; and most of the other units he listed have upgraded as well.

[Bpb]

I was fascinated by this thread when it started and I rememeber several of us just giddy with anticipation on what info would pop up next. Looking back now that it has been resurrected, it's loaded with opinion and little to no proof or actual science, besides the people arguing the OPs statements. I for one like the kessil color blending, but beyond that, there are too many hit/miss stories from every brand out there that this thread carries about as much weight as any of the other forgettable ones. Especially since the OP ditched both radions and kessils for the ocean revive units.

Posting a pic. Just for fun. This is a well known sps guy on RC. His tank was grown in its entirety under a variety of different bridgelux/epistar budget Chinese d120 led brick units. 16 to be exact.

[nvrEnuf]

I beleive it completely, my T247's are REDICULOUSLY powerful. I think I need the Gyre 150 just so my flow can be as overpowered as my lights!

Opinion does have it's place in lighting though - My old BML's put out a color I can't match with the revive's and I wish I could!