Low Phosphate question.

[haze152]

For the last week my phosphates have been 0.0 (Hana meter). I have turned my dual reactor way down. Should I be concerned with levels that low? Should I feed a couple times a day to get levels to rise?

Current feeding schedule.

My shrimp once a day

Coral frenzy 2-3 times a week

Oyster feast 1 a week

Rodi 1-2 times a week

[jestep]

There's probably still organic PO4 in the rock and calcium based substrate so you're probably not literally at zero. But, occationally test the nitrates as the bacteria that breaks down NO3 must have available PO4. Otherwise if the fish and coral look healthy, I definitely wouldn't be worrying.

[victoly]

With that amount of feeding, you should be detecting a little phosphate, even running GFO. While the meter is +/- 0.02, i suspect measurement error. If you were truly at 0.00, or even 0.02, i suspect your corals wouldnt look very happy.

[Juiceman]

Yeah, as long as your feeding your fish and corals look good, I wouldn't worry about it!

[ct67stang]

I thought a zero reading would be good. what ppm should it be at.

[FarmerTy]

When mine read zero, I pulled the GFO. My coral are definitely looking better today and my SPS look less faded. Mind you, it read 0 on the PPB Hanna meter. Yikes!

[Neon Reefer]

With that amount of feeding, you should be detecting a little phosphate, even running GFO. While the meter is +/- 0.02, i suspect measurement error. If you were truly at 0.00, or even 0.02, i suspect your corals wouldnt look very happy.

I thought a zero reading would be good. what ppm should it be at.

Victoly

Randy Farley might disagree w/ the 0.02 making your corals unhappy

Stang

Dr. Farley Reef Chemist recommends <0.03 PO4 in a reef aquarium

Here is a good table from him on proper water params

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-05/rhf/index.php

[reefer74]

I'm not a coral pro but through years of experience and constantly still learning I've found that while keeping your phosphates down is great for keeping your tank free of most pest algae from developing there is that fine line where you are basically starving your sps. Being in this hobby for some time it was always taught that you should run the cleanest water possible in order to keep sps, and now were finding out that they gotta eat too. While running GFO my best results have been when I dose amino acids along with regular feedings to the inhabitants. This has given me the best coloration to my sps but then again it's a fine line to follow. God I hate SPS....lol.

[ct67stang]

well I just got back from the pet store and bought a few gallons of just DI water and I used my hanna checker and got .10, .12, and .09 I that order for three tests. I called and they said a .1 reading is ok. from my research and you guys here confirming the common or recommended ppm is .03 today was my first purchase of lfs water. before I was buying from the water machines at HEB. I couldn't figure out why I had high phosphate readings ever after a 75% water change so I tested the water and it read .24. so I quickly ran to lfs just to find that its at an average of .1 needless to say.... im at a loss!! I live in an apartment, but im just going to have to suck it up and invest in an rodi unit.

[Timfish]

I would definitely keep phosphates above .03 ppm. On a reef phosphates the water may test much lower for phosphates but there is also a huge influx of particulate and zooplankton to meet the corals requirements. I have seen "SPS" very happy in levels 10 times or more the recomendations but some will stop growing and loose the brown coloration indicative of a healthy Symbodinium sp. dinoflagellate population at and below .03 ppm phosphates. One problem with the Hanna phosphate checker is it's accuracy is +/- .01 ppm so at .03 it is possible to get a false good reading.

[ct67stang]

I would definitely keep phosphates above .03 ppm. On a reef phosphates the water may test much lower for phosphates but there is also a huge influx of particulate and zooplankton to meet the corals requirements. I have seen "SPS" very happy in levels 10 times or more the recomendations but some will stop growing and loose the brown coloration indicative of a healthy Symbodinium sp. dinoflagellate population at and below .03 ppm phosphates. One problem with the Hanna phosphate checker is it's accuracy is +/- .01 ppm so at .03 it is possible to get a false good reading.

I would definitely keep phosphates above .03 ppm. On a reef phosphates the water may test much lower for phosphates but there is also a huge influx of particulate and zooplankton to meet the corals requirements. I have seen "SPS" very happy in levels 10 times or more the recomendations but some will stop growing and loose the brown coloration indicative of a healthy Symbodinium sp. dinoflagellate population at and below .03 ppm phosphates. One problem with the Hanna phosphate checker is it's accuracy is +/- .01 ppm so at .03 it is possible to get a false good reading.

I get .19 on the HEB water and .1 on the lfs water. even with the margin of error it seems to be too high. in your personal opinion Tim is it ok to keep it at .1 in a non sps tank?

[victoly]

I misspoke earlier as well. Just a clarification tim, the accuracy (how close to the actual value the reading is) is 0.04 ppm or 4% of the total measurement scale. Whereas the resolution, or ability of the meter to register a reading is 0.01 ppm.

http://www.hannainst.com/usa/prods2.cfm?id=045001&ProdCode=HI%20713

accuracy and precision aren't synonymous, something i struggle with remembering frequently.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accuracy_and_precision

Either way, doesn't really change the point you're making. You can have a reading that appears good, which is in fact bad due to the margin of error that the meter has.

[victoly]

I would definitely keep phosphates above .03 ppm. On a reef phosphates the water may test much lower for phosphates but there is also a huge influx of particulate and zooplankton to meet the corals requirements. I have seen "SPS" very happy in levels 10 times or more the recomendations but some will stop growing and loose the brown coloration indicative of a healthy Symbodinium sp. dinoflagellate population at and below .03 ppm phosphates. One problem with the Hanna phosphate checker is it's accuracy is +/- .01 ppm so at .03 it is possible to get a false good reading.

>I would definitely keep phosphates above .03 ppm. On a reef phosphates the water may test much lower for phosphates but there is also a huge influx of particulate and zooplankton to meet the corals requirements. I have seen "SPS" very happy in levels 10 times or more the recomendations but some will stop growing and loose the brown coloration indicative of a healthy Symbodinium sp. dinoflagellate population at and below .03 ppm phosphates. One problem with the Hanna phosphate checker is it's accuracy is +/- .01 ppm so at .03 it is possible to get a false good reading.

I get .19 on the HEB water and .1 on the lfs water. even with the margin of error it seems to be too high. in your personal opinion Tim is it ok to keep it at .1 in a non sps tank?

The main reason people try to keep PO4 low is that it fuels nuisance algea. Less to do with direct husbandry of the corals IMO.

[victoly]

With that amount of feeding, you should be detecting a little phosphate, even running GFO. While the meter is +/- 0.02, i suspect measurement error. If you were truly at 0.00, or even 0.02, i suspect your corals wouldnt look very happy.

>I thought a zero reading would be good. what ppm should it be at.

Victoly

Randy Farley might disagree w/ the 0.02 making your corals unhappy

Stang

Dr. Farley Reef Chemist recommends <0.03 PO4 in a reef aquarium

Here is a good table from him on proper water params

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-05/rhf/index.php

Anecdotally, I have to disagree. I have personally had bad results when I let my phosphate get too low by being too aggressive with GFO.

[ct67stang]

great article. I ran into it before in another seach for I think nitrates. so this post has taught me that too low is not good. but what would be too high in yalls opinion?

[FarmerTy]

I think we're talking about several different scenarios here. If I didn't have SPS, I ran PO4 around 0.1-0.2 ppm and have no problems. Heck, the zoas and LPS probably enjoyed it more.

When I went heavy on SPS, my best coloration was always found around 0.01-0.03. That's where I always saw better coloration on my SPS. When I dipped below 0.01, my SPS started fading. My red planet was more of a pink planet. My cali tort was light blue instead of the good dark blue.

The opposite was true as well. When I got above 0.03, my colors started browning out. Again, this is only regarding SPS. I didn't bother with GFO and biopellets before I got SPS, a simple 10-20% water change took care of it every 2 weeks for LPS and zoas.

If everything looks happy, I wouldn't bother chasing numbers. I just chase numbers because of those stupid colored sticks!

[ct67stang]

I have a zoa only tank and they all open up and look happy. my concern was with stunting growth. but as we all know it so hard to say whether the growth rate is normal or not. I feel more at ease now fwiw

[Richard L]

Zoas only? Phosphate, smosphate. Unless......

I ran my first year of my tank as a softy and LPS tank and could care less what the phosphate levels were. Everything was colorful and happy. Then I started adding SPS and they would quickly brown out. So I started chasing low nutrient levels. My phosphate levels were high around 0.30. Its been 10 months and although I can get the phosphate into the 0.03-0.05 range using GFO, I can't maintain it for longer than about two weeks. After much discussion and reading I've come to the conclusion that my live rock has absorbed tons of phosphate during that first year when I didn't care about it. And now, when my level drops, the phosphate leaches out of the rocks overwhelming my GFO. So I'd recommend controlling phosphate if you have any plans for SPS in the future since they absolutely hate a phosphate roller coaster. I'm talking total colony RTN in 1-2 days if the swing is too quick.

[haze152]

As far as corals the colors have never looked better then they do right now. My biggest concern is growth. In 2 weeks it will be month 10 so I know it going to hit the next level of maturity soon when the sps growth should increase. I have already noticed when I put a new frag in the tank it starts to encrust within 2 weeks. My northern light acro has tripled in size in the last 60 days. Currently I keep my cal at 450 Alk at 8-9 I am just hoping the low phosphate don't stun growth to much. I don't want to shut GFO down completely. Any other thoughts on getting it to the .02-.05 range?

[haze152]

I forgot to

Mention nitrates stay below 5. When they starts to creep up I do my water change. As far as coral goes it an over stocked SPS with a few Lps and tons on z and p. You can see pic of the corals on my post build thread to me colors look good. When the pics were taken my phosphates were less then .04 for over a week

http://www.austinreefclub.com/topic/28631-post-75-gallon-reef/#entry218318

[Timfish]

I get .19 on the HEB water and .1 on the lfs water. even with the margin of error it seems to be too high. in your personal opinion Tim is it ok to keep it at .1 in a non sps tank?

The main reason people try to keep PO4 low is that it fuels nuisance algea. Less to do with direct husbandry of the corals IMO.

Recommended phosphate levels for any reef system is .03 ppm to .10 ppm. However, and I hesitate to say this as someone will misconstrue it as I'm endorsing higher phosphate levels, I have been very surprised to see so called "SPS" and "LPS" very happy with levels as high as 3.0 ppm AND no nuisance algae problem AND showing very good colors and very good growth (not that I can't find nuisance algae in a system, irregardless of what the phosphate levels are). Unfortunately the problem really is more complicated that just having high phosphates and/or high nitrates. Personally I won't put a lot of effort in trying to get phosphates below .08 - .1 ppm.

[haze152]

The only effort I put in was a dual reactor the GFO did all the work. I turned it down as low as u could the water basically just drips out.

[Neon Reefer]

Yeah, as long as your feeding your fish and corals look good, I wouldn't worry about it!

Probably the best advice

I would definitely keep phosphates above .03 ppm. On a reef phosphates the water may test much lower for phosphates but there is also a huge influx of particulate and zooplankton to meet the corals requirements.

This is very true, there is an abundantce of coral foods available on the reef and the phosphate levels for ocean water is generally thought to be 0.005 ppm. That is still 6x less than what is generally thought to an acceptable level in the aquarium. Does that mean as aquarist we should provide 6 x less food than is provided on the reef? I have no idea! Not even sure how one would go to measure these different amounts. But when we start talking about levels approaching .1 then we are talking about levels 20x higher and 1.0 ~ 200 x higher. It is hard to imagine that corals would "thrive" in levels of PO4 200x higher than their mnatural enviroment.

It is a very fine line especially w/ SPS corals to find the best water params for optimal growth. Too high = bad and too low = bad. What isbest? I'm not really sure. Two things I do know. Phosphates at too high a level will do at least inhibit the calcification of skeletal coral, limiting its growth, and too low can starve your coral. The other thing I know is there is little new information about Phoshates and coral. For sure the chemistry hasn't changed. Newest experimentation by experienced reefers has shown that by trying to lower Phosphates below 0.01 to near seawater has shown no benefits from ~ just south of 0.03ppm. In fact this is where aquarist have shown corals in the aquaium start to starve out due to lack of available nutirents.

Like everything else in life things are usually best when done in moderation, and everything is relevant. If you feed heavy and export heavy then low < .03 ppm PO4 is probably a good thing for optimal color and growth of SPS. If you never feed better keep those levels up some, but over playing it will probably not be beneficial either.

I think we're talking about several different scenarios here. If I didn't have SPS, I ran PO4 around 0.1-0.2 ppm and have no problems. Heck, the zoas and LPS probably enjoyed it more.

When I went heavy on SPS, my best coloration was always found around 0.01-0.03. That's where I always saw better coloration on my SPS. When I dipped below 0.01, my SPS started fading. My red planet was more of a pink planet. My cali tort was light blue instead of the good dark blue.

The opposite was true as well. When I got above 0.03, my colors started browning out. Again, this is only regarding SPS. I didn't bother with GFO and biopellets before I got SPS, a simple 10-20% water change took care of it every 2 weeks for LPS and zoas.

If everything looks happy, I wouldn't bother chasing numbers. I just chase numbers because of those stupid colored sticks!

Good observation. When you dive or view corals on HD video, ever notice they are not that vivid color we strive for in our aquariums. Most of this color we acheive is thru heavy feeding of fatty acids, obviuosly higher than found in nature, amd then what do we have to do. Heavy skimming and filtration to combat the higher amounts of PO4 and Nitrates.

I get .19 on the HEB water and .1 on the lfs water. even with the margin of error it seems to be too high. in your personal opinion Tim is it ok to keep it at .1 in a non sps tank?

The main reason people try to keep PO4 low is that it fuels nuisance algea. Less to do with direct husbandry of the corals IMO.

Recommended phosphate levels for any reef system is .03 ppm to .10 ppm. However, and I hesitate to say this as someone will misconstrue it as I'm endorsing higher phosphate levels, I have been very surprised to see so called "SPS" and "LPS" very happy with levels as high as 3.0 ppm AND no nuisance algae problem AND showing very good colors and very good growth (not that I can't find nuisance algae in a system, irregardless of what the phosphate levels are). Unfortunately the problem really is more complicated that just having high phosphates and/or high nitrates. Personally I won't put a lot of effort in trying to get phosphates below .08 - .1 ppm.

I agree w/ the algae issue and PO4. Right now I seem to be starving my coral w/ undetectable amounts of PO4 although I know it is present because I have traces of algae in my tank including plankton. So yes algae can live at very low levels although it will not flourish in the ULNS. However on the flip side of the coin high PO4 and Nitrates does not necessarily mena you will have pst algae outbreaks. I had a 12 G w/ a pait of clowns and because of the nutient load in a small tank w/ no exportation xcept water changes NO3 ~ 15ppm and PO4 ~0.16ppm and never any pest algae in tank. And it depends on who you talk to about how well tanks do at varying degrees of the "ates". Moderation must be the key.

[victoly]

You get algae on the substrate/rocks because the phosphate bonds with the surface and can supply algae locally instead of in the water column.

[Neon Reefer]

You get algae on the substrate/rocks because the phosphate bonds with the surface and can supply algae locally instead of in the water column.

This is quite ofter true for bound up phosphates. But where does the Phosphate come from when algae grows on the glass and powerheads, which is my own experrience at present? From the water column? But I do see where you arte coming from. Could be leeching back of course, but more likely is coming naturally from the mysis shrimp i feed.