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Salifert All In One - Is it for me?


Neon Reefer

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This post as titled is to describe the use of Salifert All in One supplement. Aquarist today have a lot of choices when it comes to deciding on one’s use of supplementing calcium and other foundation elements in the aquarium. And when making the decision on which route to take one should look into a number of variables which are not limited to but should include at a minimum: needs of the aquarium, sophistication and experience level of the system verses the aquarist, initial and ongoing costs, as well as consistency of results.

Determining needs for a reef tank will surely consider as the most important factor the appropriate supplementation of calcium and alkalinity in an appropriate balance. And reaching this goal can be accomplished in a number of ways to include one or two part dosing, calcium carbonate with or without a reactor or simply by water changes. Any of these methods can be effective for most systems but not all are practical for any system. Take for example simply utilizing water changes to maintain proper foundation elements. A lot of aquarists take this route but it is most practical for nano tanks where the larger more frequent changes are smaller in nature. Then the other side of the spectrum is the calcium reactor, not really practical for a nano system. Then in the middle where most aquarist fall is the balanced additive dosing, this is what is most practical for most of us; whether delivered by hand or thru some type of dosing system.

Balanced additives or the only products I am referring to here as I avoid the use of individual additives except to form a starting point or to correct imbalances in the system, because IME the frequent use of these simply will create imbalances in the system over longer periods of time. When I first took a look at supplements for my nano systems I wanted as an extreme novice to utilize an “I can’t go wrong product”, and wanted something that was effective, pure (no unwanted additives), as well as cost effective. In the beginning I ended up utilizing large water changes w/ high quality salts not only for dosing but to regulate NO3 and PO4 as I was not skimming or utilizing other forms of waste exportation. Once the system settled down and matured, I found the heavy water changes were no longer needed and I looked into dosing the foundation elements. From an article I found by Dr. Farley I decided to start with Saliferts All In One, a one part balanced Calcium Acetate system. The reasons being is it seemed easy to manage, effective, pure, and cheaper than water changes.

In actuality there are two types of One Part balanced systems, Calcium Acetate and Salt mixtures. One part salt mixtures are dry mixes of sodium bicarbonate and calcium chloride. But use of this product limits it to being added directly to the tank as it cannot premix w/ water as this will form insoluble calcium carbonate. And in reality special care is needed when storing to preserve the quality as well as when adding to the display or sump; as well as limiting the ability to use in an ATO or dosing system. In addition long term use will lead to increased salinity levels and care is needed in monitoring this product over the long term.

On the other hand calcium acetate one part systems like the Salifert All In One product is very close to the frequently used limewater and vinegar. Simply when dissolved in water (fresh or salt) it separates into calcium and acetate ions. The acetate quickly breaks down into bicarbonate CO2 and water. Even though the chemical formula shows an excess of CO2, practical use shows no significant decrease in pH factors, although my tanks seem to stay closer to 8.2 pH than 8.4 pH. And again although there is no empirical evidence the formula also demonstrates an excess of Carbon which may in the anaerobic areas of the tank help facilitate the conversion of Nitrates to Nitrogen gas, which for many of us would be another plus, as demonstrated in the following 2nd formula when 5 acetate molecules’ combine with eight nitrate molecules instead of two oxygen molecules in the 1st formula.

CH3COO- (acetate) + 2 O2 → HCO3- + CO2 + H2O

5 CH3COO-(acetate) + 8 NO3- → 10 CO2 + 4 N2 + 13 OH- + H2O

In addition to the balanced introduction of calcium and acetate ions, Salifert All In One also contains Strontium, Amino Acids and most trace elements need; making it truly a complete supplement. It is a product that can be poured directly into the tank IE for nano systems or used in dosing ATO systems, which is how I have chosen to deliver to my 75 Gal aquarium.

This product is made in Holland Europe and is very concentrated, considered pharmaceutically pure, and claims all ingredients in the bottle will be delivered to the tank, and there is no increase in salinity over time. It is a relatively safe product to use with overdosing effects depending on the factors determining the speed at which the acetate is metabolized into the system. If overdosing occurs with a fast metabolic rate then oxygen depletion could occur. If metabolism is slow then a buildup of acetate would occur which presents no specific concerns. Just be sure to calculate correctly the total gallons of your system to include the sump. IE: In my 75 Gal display system I would calculate the dose based on the total gallons in the system. My 75 G display holds ~68 Gal after rock and substrate displacement, and my 29 Gal sump holds ~ 15 Gal as set up making my total system ~ 83 gals total. At a single weekly dosage rate of 5 ml per 25 Gals, then my single weekly dosage rate would calculate out to 83G / 25G = 3.32 x 5 ml = 16.6 ml for a single weekly dose. This is the minimum dose and should be sufficient for low consumption tanks. However my tank is predominately stony being a mixed reef heavy on LPS then SPS and Softies pretty evenly mixed. And also factoring in new Coralline algae growth makes my demand considerably higher than the minimum. I have decided to begin the first week w/ a 1.5 x minimum dose of 25ml.

To do this I must first reach a desired level of Ca and Alk by dosing either one or both parts of a 2 part system to reach the desired levels prior to starting the Salifert one part. I do this by first doing a water change making sure the salinity is where I intend on keeping it. I then test to see where my params are and then dose the Ca and / or Alk as needed to achieve a balance. I found my desired balance with Ca @ 425 and Alk @ 9.0 dkH. Bu utilizing salt mix and testing equipment both Red Sea Pro, and 2 Part Kent for Nano. After finding this balance I was now ready to begin the Salifert One part dosing thru my ATO. To do this I needed to determine my evaporative loss and subsequent replacement of RODI thru the ATO system. After watching the ATO system for a couple of weeks I determined I was replacing ~ 5 gals of RODI per week. Therefore I simply added the 25 ml of Salifert to a full 5 Gal Bucket of RODI and connected to ATO system.

Testing to determine the levels of Ca and Alk should be done x2 weekly to determine if the consumption rate is higher or lower than expected during the initial period If different than expected simply calculate the increase or decrease in dosing to meet specific needs and rebalance the system w/ either or both parts of the 2 part. But the rate of delivery is equally important and needs to remain constant. Changes in the rate of evaporation will change the rate of delivery to the aquarium system. IE if water temps go up or down then evaporation will change in parallel. Also evaporation can change w/ increased or decreased water flow or by adjusting power heads and increasing or decreasing surface tension (water ripples). Therefore before beginning w/ a delivery system thru the ATO make sure you have made all desired changes to your system, and if changes are made after wards, be prepared to adjust the concentration of the ATO solution. But after intimal set up and trial period dosing, when the desired balance is achieved only weekly and eventually monthly testing would be required for stable systems.

So what are the Pros and Cons of this system for nano and intermediate size aquariums up to 100 gallons? Set up cost is nil when hand dosing and still a big bonus thru an ATO system as set up cost for this is still low especially when compared to reactors. The ongoing costs are still relatively low, but not as low as Kalk. Product cost is typically around 4 cents per ml. So my system on initial set up would cost me $4 per month to operate. Still cheap enough IMO! Limits to the Ca and Alk available are relatively nil except that over periods of time it is usually required to adjust up the Alk levels to readjust the balance. I plan to hand dose some of the part 2 as needed, but the amount of work is still low when compared to 2 part dosing, or about the same as Kalk and surely less than setting up a reactor and dialing in. Space required to do this is nil as well. This can rally be done in nanos quite easily. Effects on pH are relatively nil as it finds it’s balance around 8.2. This is one of the differences between Salifert and Kalk. Another point is Kalk will help to isolate PO4 where although this product does not increase PO4 it does nothing to reduce or isolate it either, although it may have a positive effect on the reduction of Nitrates where Kalk does not. It is a pure product that has low overdosing potential and poses no particular threat to human safety.

I know the question of why not just use Kalkwasser instead will come up as it can be made cheaply and is as effective. Well first of all I really don’t want to make it up. In addition it is very basic ~above 12pH and has to be added very slowly making the overdose of Kalk a greater threat to pH than Salifert. These higher pH values do have benefit for precipitating out some undesirables, although too high will cause a precipitation of calcium carbonate in the tank. Another disadvantage to Kalk is tanks with high Ca and Alk demand may not have enough evaporation to make it possible to add enough Kalk thru the ATO, making it necessary to purchase a dosing system to accomplish the need for higher dosing as s ell as utilizing 2 part to supplement. Cost = 1 lb Kalk about $14 or about $1.15 per thousand meq. of alkalinity, and where medium load tanks require ~ 1.5 Meq per gal / per day = ~9.5 per week at a cost of only pennies per week. Much cheaper that’s for sure, but there are some potential human risks associated with the use of lime water. Skin and especially eyes can be irritated if exposed to it and inhalation of the dust should be extremely avoided.

So to sum it up Salifert All In One is a complete system with trace and amino acids included in a easy to use liquid one part system, easily utilized in an ATO or by hand dosing. It has little to no set up cost, is very convenient as a concentrated liquid where a 1000ml bottle will last a medium size tank months at a cost of ~ $4 per month. It is more fool proof and requires less experience to use than other products, works well with nano and intermediate size aquariums, takes up little to no space and has little to no limited potential on raising foundation elements. It does require the addition of a Mg supplement as needed and contains no iodine in any form. It is a pharmaceutical quality product with no impurities. I must say that I have been very happy w/ this product over the past 12 months or so. If you are considering a change in your current product then maybe you should consider it.

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Good write up. So you said the ph swings are less with salifert? Do you add less than you would kalk? Do you add it all at once?

Thanks Bige

pH swings w/ Salifert are smaller yes. And actually I have seen no pH swings w/ it's use although the chemistry indicates it could possibly lower pH some. Biggest advantage is it is a whole lot harder to OD your tank on Salifert when trying to dial it in. An OD on Kalk will significantly raise the pH and possibly precept out calcium carbonate causing a cloudy effect. My readings at 7:00AM this morning prior to lights on were 8.2. This should be my low point for the day as morning pH values normally are. In addition my Ca was 425ppm and Alk 9.0 dKH. Both rock solid. So I may have dialed it in on this new tank pretty close first try grin.png.

Not real sure how much Kalk is added in a similar situation as I have never used it. But I believe Stony corals consume calcium and alkalinity to build their skeletons, at a ratio of 20 ppm calcium per 2.8 dKH of alkalinity. But not real sure how much it takes over time. I know there are periods when you have to follow some particular steps to rebalance the system w/ Mg and trace. Not sure on all the steps but I'd bet you could find lots of info on it. But for a BC 29 with no sump or ATO balanced dosing is easier. Hand dosing of Salifert is quite easy. You can follow daily or weekly regiments with this product by adding it directly to the tank. Works well w/ or without big water changes. When I began using this product in my JBJ 28G I got phenomenal growth on my LPS. I believe another benefit of Salifert over Kalk is the trace and amino acids which are not provided w/ Kalk. Kalk only raises Ca and simply helps to maintain Alk not actually raise it. Kalk will raise pH and can help to precept out PO4. But it far more complicated than running Salifert thru the ATO IMO.

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No have never seen it in an LFS. Not sure why but it is readily available on the WWW. EBay, Amazon, Marine Depot, Pet Store.

Really can't understand why more people are not using this.

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Well after nearly 2 weeks and 2 - 5 gal buckets of RODI sweetened w/ Salifert All N 1, I readjusted my Ca from 390 and Alk from 8.5 up to 425 & 9.5 w/ the Kent for nano 2 part and up'd the Salifert to 2X weekly minimum or 33.3 ml for my 83 G system. Pretty much what I expected. Seems to be working great so far. My new estimated cost = .04 x 33.3 = $1.33 per week or < $75 per year.

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  • 2 months later...

Salifert: Paying for Itself?


I thought it was time to give an update on my use of Saliferts All In One acetate based one part supplement considering costs to benefit analysis as well as performance. For those who may have missed the original post Salifert All in One – Is it for me? here is the conclusion to this article.

Salifert Recap:

So to sum it up Salifert All In One is a complete system with trace and amino acids included in an easy to use liquid one part system, easily utilized in an ATO or by hand dosing. It has little to no set up cost, is very convenient as a concentrated liquid where a 1000ml bottle will last a medium size tank months at a cost of ~ $4 per month. It is more fool proof and requires less experience to use than other products, works well with nano and intermediate size aquariums, takes up little to no space and has little to no limited potential on raising foundation elements. It does require the addition of an Mg supplement as needed and contains no iodine in any form. It is a pharmaceutical quality product with no impurities. I must say that I have been very happy w/ this product over the past 12 months or so. If you are considering a change in your current product then maybe you should consider it.

Current Tank Stats:

In that article I quoted several beneficial factors from a small er nano tank concerning the cost / performance, as well as intial use and pre analysis in a newly set set up intermediate sized 75 gal tank,. After 5 months of use in my intermediate size 75Gal. tank I wanted to provide some additional feedback concerning this - post analysis. To recap I am currently utilizing a 75 Gal display w/ 29 gal sump for a net total of ~ 83 gals. This is a mixed reef system predominately heavy on stony LPS and SPS corals. It was set up utilizing established live rock from another system, and this tank has been up and running 5 months. There was no recycle after set up, no NTS and I currently do not have any pest algae issues. My greatest concern currently is the lack of NO3 and PO4 in the system (undetectable w/ Red Sea Pro test) with the light bio load I have been running. These numbers although good for the SPS growth rate, has caused a slowdown in the LPS growth rates and a recession of soft corals. So as of 2 weeks ago I increased my bio-load by ~25% by adding three more fish and increasing my feeding by 30%in an effort to find a better balance for the mixed reef. Next week I will begin feeding Coral Frenzy twice weekly at 50% of the recommended rate and then re-evaluate my tank sterility. My other water params are as follows: SG ~ 1.0255 - Ca ~ 430ppm – Alk ~ 9.1 dKH – Mg ~ 1500 ppm – pH ~ 8.2 and Temp ~ 79 F.

Cost/ benefit analysis:

I currently dose 50ml of Saliferts All In One per week by simply adding 50 ml in 5 gal of RODI and deliver it thru my ATO. Simple enough! Right? And the results is a steady measurement of Ca & Alk which is delivered in small amounts multiple times daily thru my ATO system so I benefit from rock solid numbers throughout the day w/ little to no variations. And to maintain the balance between Ca and Alk I do utilize a Kent 2 part to balance the system from time to time, but this has been really just a minimal amount. My pH stays at a steady max of 8.2 (day time) as Saliferts will NOT raise pH like Kalk. And since Salifert is a complete system containing minor foundation elements such as Strontium and trace elements as well as amino acids, there is no need for other types of supplementation for trace for those who choose not to change good water. I normally adhere to the 20% per month to maintain trace and minor foundation elements. But w/ Salifert I am utilizing only 10% per month in new saltwater, and still maintaining all needed elements of the aquarium. This 10% per month or 8.3 gals per month in savings equals $12.45 in savings when purchasing premium saltwater from the LFS @ $1.50 per gallon. I know it can be made for less utilizing salt mix, an RODI system, and mixing equipment; but it’s a little hard to figure this exact cost considering the equipment needed, its depreciation and the depletion rate of the filters, not to mention the lost water of the RO system at rates as high as 4 to 1. But figuring you can buy RODI at 20 cents per gallon and Red Sea Pro Salt mix 55 gal. cost $40.00 delivered from the cheapest online sites. That equates to 73 cents per gal plus 20 cents per gal RODI or 93 cents per gallon plus the costs of equipment and maintenance on the equipment, relating to a conservative avg. figure of ~ $1.00 per gallon saltwater or $8.30 per month in cost at 8.3 gals in water changes per month. This means that for my savings per month from the decreased water changes is between $8.30 - $12.40 depending on which method I am getting my salt water from. So the average of both is $10.35. The cost of Salifert delivered to the door is ~$48 per 1000 ml or 4.8 cents per ml, and at a usage of 50 ml per week = $2.40 per week, or $11.20 per month. Therefore $11.20 costs minus $10.35 in avg. savings = $0.85 per month in costs to utilize Saliferts. I challenge anyone to do better utilizing other supplements and delivery systems when you figure in all static and variable costs, even Kalk. Personally for me it’s a $1.20 savings per month because I will not make up the water but buy it, as it is far more cost effective and convenient for me to buy 8.3 gals of readymade Red Sea Pro then to make it up. Hey at this rate it is actually paying for my Magnesium and Iodide I need to supplement as well. This you would have to do as well with most 2 parts or Kalk.

Punch line:

So there you have it folks: Saliferts All in One does pay for itself and does as good a job maintaining parameters as anything on the market, maybe even better than some because of the ease of use resulting in less chance for error.. All this means I’ll be using it a long time. And guess what; with all things being equal it’s really the savings that go up w/ bigger systems not the costs. There is only one thing I can’t figure out. Why aren’t more people using it? The manufacturer is a quality trusted source, it works, it’s easy, it’s cost effective and it’s not some new snake oil. So what’s up with that?

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I've bolded some of the cons to using an all in one method. In short, it's fine for small tanks or low consumption tanks, but if you're doing large SPS dominant, other methods are better suited both from cost and control standpoints.

"Calcium acetate is a product that has gotten relatively little publicity despite its apparent ease of use and the commercial availability to aquarists. In some ways it is similar to the combination of limewater and vinegar.16 When dissolved in water (fresh or salt), you have calcium ions and acetate ions. The acetate is rapidly metabolized by tank organisms to form bicarbonate, carbon dioxide, and water:

CH3COO- (acetate) + 2 O2 → HCO3- + CO2 + H2O

This equation suggests that pH of such tanks may stay near the low end of normal, because of the excess carbon dioxide, but the practical experience of people using calcium acetate suggests that this is not a big concern.

Calcium acetate may also facilitate the conversion of nitrate to nitrogen gas (N2)16 in anoxic regions of live sand and rock by providing the carbon source necessary for the process (but this has not been demonstrated one way or the other). The equation below shows the process that could take place:

5 CH3COO- (acetate) + 8 NO3- → 10 CO2 + 4 N2 + 13 OH- + H2O

One of the sources of calcium acetate to aquarists is Salifert’s All in One (a product that also contains some strontium, amino acids, and some trace elements). It is a liquid product that can be poured directly into a tank with no immediate concerns about pH. The current version of their commercial product is 250,000-mg/L calcium acetate, so it contains the equivalent of 3,160 meq/L of alkalinity. This products sells in the US for about $31.50/L. Consequently, it costs about $10.00 per thousand meq/L of alkalinity. That price makes it very expensive for a tank with a large demand for calcium and alkalinity, but the zero initial costs make it attractive for small tanks, especially nano-reef tanks.

I have no information on the purity of the material, or the exact nature of the “trace elements” in it. Everything in the bottle will be delivered to the tank. It poses no unusual safety concerns. The upper limit to how much calcium and alkalinity can be supplied to a tank in this fashion depends on two factors. If the metabolism of acetate is rapid and the dose is very high, oxygen might be depleted. If the conversion is slow then acetate can build up in the tank (not itself a significant concern except perhaps at very high levels where it might confound an alkalinity test2). Habib Sekha of Salifert has indicated that using the doses recommended on the bottle will not lead to either of these issues being problematic.

Overdosing is not expected to be an unusual problem, but if one makes significant additions in this fashion, the alkalinity will take time to show up completely in the tank because the acetate takes time to be metabolized. Consequently, I’d wait a day after adding it to measure alkalinity. Calcium measurement won’t be similarly impacted. Tank salinity will not increase over time using calcium acetate."

-RHF

Additionally, you still have to dose other things (namely Mg) which IMO makes this not as attractive. Personally, if I have to dose, I'd just as soon dose straight 2 part without relying on microbes to do any conversion.




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Vic

Chemistry And The Aquarium: How To Select A Calcium And Alkalinity Supplementation Scheme By Randy Holmes-Farley. .

Not that you need an APA format here but you should probably better identify wherre you copied and pasted from, I beleive that is club protocal. And yes everything he states in the article is true. And I am pretty clear on the methods by which i reached my decision. I beleive my numbers are pretty solid. If you try to compare the unit cost of salifert to randy's DIY Kalk cost then you would find a huge descrepency in my numbers. But if you read what i have written with an open mind it makes more sense. I tried to send you some numbers for comparison and additional information in a PM but couldn't get through. Am I blocked from sending you PMs?


So i'll just mention some highlights for you again. Balance out the costs of additional supplimentation to equal saliferts minor and trace. Balance in the need for an addditional water changes and the numbers are much different. Also in my original article i wrote i spoke to some of thre advantages / disagvantages of kalk and Salifert. You bolded that if concentrations are VERY HIGH and metabolic rates are VERY FAST then MAYBE oxygen would be depleted. Now i'll quote from the same article " Salifert has indicated that using the doses recommended on the bottle will not lead to either of these issues being problematic." I'll ask you what happens when you overdose w' Kalk? I beleive the answers are very high pH and a range of associated problems especially the precipertation of calcium carbonate as well as coral burning in localized events. AND Nothing looks worst than a snowstorm of precipertating CaCO3. Not a problem w' salifert.. Also you sometimes cannot keep enouigh lime water concentration in an ATO to keep up w/ the needs of a demanding stoney tank. Again requires to use additional supplimentation in the form of a 2 part or one part and THE addition time and costs. And Kalk reactors again would raise the static costs.


And as far as "Additionally, you still have to dose other things (namely Mg) which IMO makes this not as attractive. Personally, if I have to dose, I'd just as soon dose straight 2 part without relying on microbes to do any conversion.


Most of us are not dosing Mg nearly as frequently as we dose Ca and Alk. How often do you dose Mg in your Bio 29? And if you are dosing 2 part then you are not using your ATO to do it. Have to go to a set of dosing pumps. Uhh oh ! 2 part dosing pumps are expensive to set up, the additional equipment is often times rather finiky. But salifert / ATO gives the same constant appeal of regular and continuos dosing like Kalk Also 2 part raises SG over time especially in a demanding tank. Additional adjustments are required, Not too difficult just another little annoance. And as far as microbes go, we depend on them for the basic existance of our tanks. What powers the N cycle? IMHO I think you have the perfect nano tank to give it a try. . .


.

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Vic

Chemistry And The Aquarium: How To Select A Calcium And Alkalinity Supplementation Scheme By Randy Holmes-Farley. .

Not that you need an APA format here but you should probably better identify wherre you copied and pasted from, I beleive that is club protocal. And yes everything he states in the article is true. And I am pretty clear on the methods by which i reached my decision. I beleive my numbers are pretty solid. If you try to compare the unit cost of salifert to randy's DIY Kalk cost then you would find a huge descrepency in my numbers. But if you read what i have written with an open mind it makes more sense. I tried to send you some numbers for comparison and additional information in a PM but couldn't get through. Am I blocked from sending you PMs?

So i'll just mention some highlights for you again. Balance out the costs of additional supplimentation to equal saliferts minor and trace. Balance in the need for an addditional water changes and the numbers are much different. Also in my original article i wrote i spoke to some of thre advantages / disagvantages of kalk and Salifert. You bolded that if concentrations are VERY HIGH and metabolic rates are VERY FAST then MAYBE oxygen would be depleted. Now i'll quote from the same article " Salifert has indicated that using the doses recommended on the bottle will not lead to either of these issues being problematic." I'll ask you what happens when you overdose w' Kalk? I beleive the answers are very high pH and a range of associated problems especially the precipertation of calcium carbonate as well as coral burning in localized events. AND Nothing looks worst than a snowstorm of precipertating CaCO3. Not a problem w' salifert.. Also you sometimes cannot keep enouigh lime water concentration in an ATO to keep up w/ the needs of a demanding stoney tank. Again requires to use additional supplimentation in the form of a 2 part or one part and THE addition time and costs. And Kalk reactors again would raise the static costs.

And as far as "Additionally, you still have to dose other things (namely Mg) which IMO makes this not as attractive. Personally, if I have to dose, I'd just as soon dose straight 2 part without relying on microbes to do any conversion.

Most of us are not dosing Mg nearly as frequently as we dose Ca and Alk. How often do you dose Mg in your Bio 29? And if you are dosing 2 part then you are not using your ATO to do it. Have to go to a set of dosing pumps. Uhh oh ! 2 part dosing pumps are expensive to set up, the additional equipment is often times rather finiky. But salifert / ATO gives the same constant appeal of regular and continuos dosing like Kalk Also 2 part raises SG over time especially in a demanding tank. Additional adjustments are required, Not too difficult just another little annoance. And as far as microbes go, we depend on them for the basic existance of our tanks. What powers the N cycle? IMHO I think you have the perfect nano tank to give it a try. . .

.

I dose Mg 10 times per day, every day. All i was doing was responding to your question of why it isn't more popular. It's not more popular because there are more precise and economical methods of control (on a per meq/l basis) for large and high demand tanks. I prefaced my previous comment by saying that it would be adequate, and even beneficial for beginners to use on small or low demand tanks.

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Good write up. So you said the ph swings are less with salifert? Do you add less than you would kalk? Do you add it all at once?

Kalk only raises Ca and simply helps to maintain Alk not actually raise it. Kalk will raise pH and can help to precept out PO4. But it far more complicated than running Salifert thru the ATO IMO.

The bolded statement is not correct. Kalk can and will increase alkalinity, however it does so at a ratio that is directly proportionate to the calcium addition. Consequently, if you desire higher alk than kalk can provide, you will need to use an additional dosing method.

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True you can raise Alk by raising your kalk levels, would have been more correct to say you shouldn't try to do more than maintain your preset levels of Alk w/ kalk. because the risk of over shooting the pH is too great. It is always better to raise or preset your alk with other means such as bicarbonate Actually same goes for the Ca levels as well. Using a calcium chloride to raise or preset the ca level is always best and just utilize the Kalk for maintenance levels. I never claimed to be an expert on Kalk levels but I know that is correct..

My posts were dealing with the ease, reliability and results of utilizing an acetate product primarily over balanced two part systems. The second part of my piece was he cost effectiveness of using the same products. And it is commonly known that they are more expensive on a per meq/l basis when compared to Kalk. How do they measure up when you utilize all the static costs associated with Kalk or 2 part and the minor elements, trace additives and or water changes needed to measure up to a more complete product like saliferts. I'm afraid you'll have to do the math for me to look at to try and change my mind. Present your case complete with the math and we can move forward. But a simple comparison of per meq / l is not a complete case.

I take it you are dosing Mg thru a peristaltic pump to dose x10 per day everyday. Must have that puppy dialed way back to meet the needs of a 29 gal and not overshoot normal Mg levels if you are utilizing a 3 dosing pump scenario or a two pump system w/ an Mg additive like in Randy's newer formula for 2 part would be a better scenerio I imagine. In my work i always look for the most cost efficient manner to provide solutions for production. Sometimes it comes in the form of newer more sophisticated equipment and other times simply improved production methods utilizing existing equiment already in place. These ideas I bring to my hobby as I am not one to just purchase equipment for the sake of having the newest and most expensive things. I take pride in being able to deliver what my tank needs are for less $$$.

The Salifert cost effective analysis I suggested is best for those who already have in place an ATO and are wanting to stop hand dosing or who have been Kalk dosing and are thinking about moving to a different systyem for better or equal results from a simplier and somewhat safer means of delivery, Nothing is easier than adding a small amount of a single suppliment once a week to your ATO. And there is no rreal better way to deliver the product, even when considering dosing pumps. And being able to do away w/ additional supplimentation and water changes does affect the costs.

My water changes costs me < $150 per year. Salifert for a hungry LPS / SPS mixed reef tank is costing < $140 per year. I dont figure any static costs such as equipment maintanence or repairs because I use an existing system. No other form of supplimentation related to maintaining the Ca, Alk, major, minor or trace elements is required except for a little rebalancing of the system which is barely worth mentioning. So total cost is <$300 per year or < $ 25.00 per month,. or the same cost as doing a 20% water change per month. And since the complete balanced formula in the Saliferts affords me the ability to do little to no water changes and eliminate the additional suppliments; the Saliferts is actually costing me nothing and does pay for itself by simply cutting my water changes in half because it is a complete suppliment. Pretty simple idea to go along w/ a simple product to use. Bigger tanks would equal bigger savings from the elimination of bigger water changes. . . .

Give us the stats on your products and costs for comparison. Might be interesting.

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True you can raise Alk by raising your kalk levels, would have been more correct to say you shouldn't try to do more than maintain your preset levels of Alk w/ kalk. because the risk of over shooting the pH is too great. It is always better to raise or preset your alk with other means such as bicarbonate Actually same goes for the Ca levels as well. Using a calcium chloride to raise or preset the ca level is always best and just utilize the Kalk for maintenance levels. I never claimed to be an expert on Kalk levels but I know that is correct..

My posts were dealing with the ease, reliability and results of utilizing an acetate product primarily over balanced two part systems. The second part of my piece was he cost effectiveness of using the same products. And it is commonly known that they are more expensive on a per meq/l basis when compared to Kalk. How do they measure up when you utilize all the static costs associated with Kalk or 2 part and the minor elements, trace additives and or water changes needed to measure up to a more complete product like saliferts. I'm afraid you'll have to do the math for me to look at to try and change my mind. Present your case complete with the math and we can move forward. But a simple comparison of per meq / l is not a complete case.

I take it you are dosing Mg thru a peristaltic pump to dose x10 per day everyday. Must have that puppy dialed way back to meet the needs of a 29 gal and not overshoot normal Mg levels. Does that mean you are utilizing a 3 dosing pump scenario. Give us the stats on your products and costs for comparison. Might be interesting.

My dosing pump cost $280. Dollars. However, this is not a necessity for 2-part, it simply allows me more stability and control. For an apples to apples cost comparison, DIY dry 2 part + magnesium can be had at a small fraction of the cost of acetate. A full 2 part system with enough material for 8 gallons of all three parts is 80 dollars. I don't know the exact cost per meq/l for 2-part, but 8 gallons of two part when compared to 1333 mL ($15/250mL = $0.06/mL * $80 = 1,333 mL of acetate) of All in one for the same cost, is really no comparison at all.

Back of the napkin, 1,333 mL of acetate would last me a year and a quarter. 8 gallons of 2 part would last many years. Back to my original post, it also allows fine turning, which acetate does not. You get what you get, and if you don't like it you STILL have to adjust with a 2-part component.

cost120.gif

Per the new Neon Reefer forum literary standard, the link is

http://www.reefkeeping.com/joomla/index.php/current-issue/article/44-calcium-reactors-in-out-and-everything-in-between-part-1

As you can see, the line for acetate would advance even more steeply than the red line for B-ionic.

Additionally

HmbSqa0.png

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2003/2/chemistry

As you can see in the second chart, acetate is even more expensive than B-ionic, which is generally accepted as the absolute most expensive way to dose 2 part.

So back to my original point, it's not popular because its more expensive, and not able to economically keep up with high demand or large tanks.

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Very nice graph and yes i have seen all this data long before our conversation, after all it is over 10 years old and the data on start up costs are way outdated. But by using your example of your $280 dosing pump you really make my case for me. That would buy 5.714 ml of Saliferts at today's prices, and would last me 114 weeks or 2 years. And that doesn't even account for the product you need to run thru your system. How long do those dosing pumps last anyway? Can you use them to top off RODI thru your system? Now factor in the cost savings from the need for fewer water changes or less supplimentation for less than foundation elements and the savings rise even more. And those dosing pumps are not providing more stability and control w/ salts as compared to acetate. Where's your science on that statement. Dosing pumps have a finer control on amount of product delivered thru the dosing pump. But you need that for the concentrated product being delivered. Apples and oranges again!

I do appreciate your comments but I feel we have reached a point where the conversation has become stale and repetitive because you still do not address the entire premise of cost savings at todays start up costs and costs of RODI systems and related products or LFS water, maintanence on these systems and the need for additional suppliments to match the quality of a complete additive like Salifert. Thanks and have a good weekend.

Andre'

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This thread has more than I can read in a day. I have tried an all in one supplement for dosing before and it's nice but you still end up having to dose other stuff so it becomes a pain. In my tank it seemed like alk and calcium were used at different rates and when I used an all in one I would have to add alk still. I think it's cheaper and less of a hassle to just do them separately as you can tune it and be done. This of course will be different with other people's tanks and its prob worth a shot! I used tropic Marin for mine I'm sure it has diff ratios than this.

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Very nice graph and yes i have seen all this data long before our conversation, after all it is over 10 years old and the data on start up costs are way outdated. But by using your example of your $280 dosing pump you really make my case for me. That would buy 5.714 ml of Saliferts at today's prices, and would last me 114 weeks or 2 years. And that doesn't even account for the product you need to run thru your system. How long do those dosing pumps last anyway? Can you use them to top off RODI thru your system? Now factor in the cost savings from the need for fewer water changes or less supplimentation for less than foundation elements and the savings rise even more. And those dosing pumps are not providing more stability and control w/ salts as compared to acetate. Where's your science on that statement. Dosing pumps have a finer control on amount of product delivered thru the dosing pump. But you need that for the concentrated product being delivered. Apples and oranges again!

I do appreciate your comments but I feel we have reached a point where the conversation has become stale and repetitive because you still do not address the entire premise of cost savings at todays start up costs and costs of RODI systems and related products or LFS water, maintanence on these systems and the need for additional suppliments to match the quality of a complete additive like Salifert. Thanks and have a good weekend.

Andre'

I didnt ignore it, i stated that to make an accurate comparison, YOU DONT NEED DOSERS! I use them because i want to. You asked a question (why isn't it more popular?) and I answered it. It's a weird niche between value dosing (kalk) and high end dosing (CaRx & 2-part) that no one seems to spend much time in. People tend to keep dosing kalk OR jump straight in to the deep end for high demand corals and not mess around with transition supplements that have limitations.

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For everyone who may be totally confused about dosing products, here is a great article by Matt Clarke from Salt Corner entitled A Buyer’s Guide to Salt Additives which is really easy to read and understand.

http://www.saltcorner.com/Articles/Showarticle.php?articleID=19

However prices are quoted in British Sterling Pounds so here is the conversion factor for cost.

.62 British pound sterling = 1 US $ or $1.61 US per Pound

Additionally here is the comparison excerpt between Salifert’s All In One and Kent Tech CB

Salifert All in One

All in One, as the name suggests, increases the calcium, alkalinity and trace element levels simultaneously. It contains 35,000 ppm, or 3.5%, calcium, plus strontium (700ppm or 0.07%) and other trace elements including zinc, manganese, cobalt and iron.

The calcium is present as calcium acetate, which Salifert claim is quickly converted to calcium bicarbonate. It also contains additional amino acids used by corals during growth.


It's designed to be dosed weekly at 5ml per 100 l./22 gal. Based on the recommended dose, a 160 l./35 gal. tank would cost around £14 per year, but it provides less calcium than Coral Calcium. Salifert state that additional treatments with alkalinity buffers like its KH + pH Buffer may be necessary during treatment. All in One comes in three sizes: 250ml (£8.37), 500ml (£14.08) and 1 l. (£23.79).


Kent Tech CB Part A and Part B

This liquid two-part solution, as the description suggests, comes in two separate bottles.

Two 1 l. bottles treat 15,100 l./3326 gal. You need to add a dose every day until the target calcium and alkalinity levels are reached. It's fairly concentrated, 10ml of each part is needed per 151 l./33 gal. Based on the recommended dose, a one off dose using both bottles on a 160 l./35.2 gal. costs about 40p. If you need to treat the tank every couple of days it would cost around £42 a year. Daily use would set you back about £147 a year. Kent Tech CB comes in two sizes: 16oz Part A and B (£17.98) and 64oz Part A and B (£43.98).

So based on manufacturers recommended dosage rates for 33-35 gal tanks Salifert costs ~ $22.50 per year and Kent Tech CB a medium priced 2 part about $67.00 US

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