Jason & Amber Posted June 2, 2013 Share Posted June 2, 2013 So a few questions on skimmers....I have a 185 gallon (build thread coming soon) looking to put a 75 gallon sump that will probably be ran half full. Looking at approx 220 gallon over all volume. 1) So when looking at skimmers should I shop based on DT size or system volume? 2) What would y'all recommend seems like Bubble Magus and reef octopus seem to be popular choices? Any other helpful advise would be awesome. If anyone is selling something that would work let me know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juiceman Posted June 2, 2013 Share Posted June 2, 2013 You always want to go +1 on your skimmer. Meaning it needs to be "rated" higher than what you actually need. I use ASM brand skimmers on my old 90g and current 200g reefs. I'm currently using the ASM G4+ which is rated to 450g. Don't skimp on equipment. You will pay for it in the long run. They're not very flashy but do a good job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bpb Posted June 2, 2013 Share Posted June 2, 2013 You're lookin for total water volume also, not display volume. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimbo662 Posted June 2, 2013 Share Posted June 2, 2013 I'm using the bubble magnus CS180. My DT is 175g and sump holds another 60g. I was lucky enough to get it at "very" good price at last years customer appreciation sale at Aquatek. They had the guys from Precision Marine there demonstrating everything. Mine was producing skimmate within 24 hrs of turning it on...not the days and days I've heard people talk about it taking to break a skimmer in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
offroadodge Posted June 2, 2013 Share Posted June 2, 2013 look into SKIMZS skimmers, I have the 201 and it rocks. Aquacave.com sells them. Or if your like me and wanna give the local economy a boost look at Precision Marine (PM) they are in NewBraunfels Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timfish Posted June 3, 2013 Share Posted June 3, 2013 I wouldn't bother with one. And if you do I would not go over size. It's interesting that Bourneman, Shimek as well as Richard Perrin from Tropicorium all say that most aquarists over skim. (Tropicorium which has been growing corals since the early '90's removed their skimmers after a few years and Steve Tyree [his name is on a few designer corals] is another coral grower that has done away with skimmers.) I also find it fascinating that none of the skimmer manufactureres provide any kind of metric for determining how well thier skimmer works at different flow rates even though Ken Feldman, et al, has demonstrated a very simple method for measuring a skimmers performance, http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2009/1/aafeature2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
victoly Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 I would bother with one. Check out all the research papers you'd like, then check out all the nicest tanks in town and see that they run skimmers. I personally oversize just about all of my equipment if I can so that I can run it at lower percentages of power/flow if applicable and have some wiggle room to upgrade in the future. Like offroaddodge said, SKIMZ makes a really solid skimmer for larger tanks, and in smaller tanks I like tunze. Honestly though, if you stick to the major brands (BM, RO, SKIMZ), you're probably going to be satisfied. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timfish Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 . . . then check out all the nicest tanks in town and see that they run skimmers. . . Don't forget to check how old they are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wesreyn Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 . . . then check out all the nicest tanks in town and see that they run skimmers. . . Don't forget to check how old they are. +1. If Steve Tyree doesn't need a skimmer I don't know why anyone would. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
victoly Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 . . . then check out all the nicest tanks in town and see that they run skimmers. . . Don't forget to check how old they are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
victoly Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 . . . then check out all the nicest tanks in town and see that they run skimmers. . . Don't forget to check how old they are. +1. If Steve Tyree doesn't need a skimmer I don't know why anyone would. So let me try to understand, a guy who is absolutely at the top of the coral propagating profession doesn't need the fudge factor that a skimmer provides, and therefore no one else should keep it in their tool belt? Got it. Lets keep in mind here that the OP was about skimmer sizing and recommendations, not whether or not to have a skimmer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timfish Posted June 5, 2013 Share Posted June 5, 2013 . . . then check out all the nicest tanks in town and see that they run skimmers. . . Don't forget to check how old they are. +1. If Steve Tyree doesn't need a skimmer I don't know why anyone would. So let me try to understand, a guy who is absolutely at the top of the coral propagating profession doesn't need the fudge factor that a skimmer provides, and therefore no one else should keep it in their tool belt? Got it. Lets keep in mind here that the OP was about skimmer sizing and recommendations, not whether or not to have a skimmer. I would recommend Delbeck and Sprungs"The Reef Aquarium" Vol III to read up on Steve Tyree's "Zonal" system. I see this discussion on whether or not a skimmer is needed essential to this thread, especially as I have struggled with the same question Jason and Amber posed and the annoyance there was no metric to determine which skimmer was better. Reading Delbreek and Sprungs discussions of both systems using skimmers and not using skimmers in the '90's in conjunction with my own observations that skimmers and complex filtering had no correlation to successful systems cemented my decision to not use skimmers and to simplify the filtration back in 1997. (Borneman further argues for keeping it simple and while he does use skimming he cautions against over skimming and points out it might be detrimental to some stoneys.) It's interesting that at the same time Leng Sy and Steve Tyree developed additional skimmerless methodologies that have provided additional proof you can have an attractive reef system without skimmers. Dramaticly in the case of Tyree's reputation for colorfull designer corals. It's interesting that since then Feldman's research has further raised serious questions considering how skimmers affect the microbial populations in reef aquaria. Additionally considering the issues with old tank syndrome and the build up of TOC which Feldman's research has shown is at best only poorly moderated by skimming raises questions on it's influence on the long term in reef aquaria. In the above post you made light of the age of a system and n this thread here: http://www.austinreefclub.com/topic/27343-cynobacteria-are-necessary/ you posted three pictures of very nice tanks you present as evidence skimming is important. I am curious just how old the systems are but judging from the pictures I'm guessing at most the oldest is less than two years. I would encourage you to do some research and find some systems that are at least twice as old. What I have seen is systems similar to what you presented have a large risk of inexplicable dieoff as they age, several I know the owners maintained meticulously . Of the three systems pictured I will be surprised if one makes it to 5 years. Jason and Amber, besides recommending Delbeek and Sprungs "The Reef Aquarium" Vol III, here are some articles with some valuable research I think you would find helpfull in understanding some of what happens biologically in aquaria and in your making decsion: Articles on Organic Carbon are: http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2008/8/aafeature3 http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2008/9/aafeature2 Articles on GAC: http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2008/1/aafeature1 http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2008/2/aafeature1 Articles on skimming: http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2009/1/aafeature2 http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2010/1/aafeature http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2011/3/aafeature These three articles put skimmers in an ambiguous light at best so for one viewpoint a little more favorable: http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-08/rhf/index.php Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
victoly Posted June 5, 2013 Share Posted June 5, 2013 So how big of a fish load do you suppose steve tyree keeps in his propagation systems? More or less than the average display tank? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
victoly Posted June 5, 2013 Share Posted June 5, 2013 "In the above post you made light of the age of a system and n this thread here: http://www.austinreefclub.com/topic/27343-cynobacteria-are-necessary/ you posted three pictures of very nice tanks you present as evidence skimming is important. I am curious just how old the systems are but judging from the pictures I'm guessing at most the oldest is less than two years. I would encourage you to do some research and find some systems that are at least twice as old. What I have seen is systems similar to what you presented have a large risk of inexplicable dieoff as they age, several I know the owners maintained meticulously . Of the three systems pictured I will be surprised if one makes it to 5 years." Here's a few. http://reefkeeping.com/joomla/index.php/current-issue/article/119-tank-of-the-month http://reefkeeping.com/joomla/index.php/current-issue/article/131-tank-of-the-month http://reefkeeping.com/joomla/index.php/current-issue/article/107-tank-of-the-month http://reefkeeping.com/joomla/index.php/current-issue/article/109-tank-of-the-month http://reefkeeping.com/joomla/index.php/current-issue/article/126-tank-of-the-month I suspect a vast majority of the other RC TOTMs have skimmers as well, but did not list age. Does five constitute sufficient research? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timfish Posted June 7, 2013 Share Posted June 7, 2013 So how big of a fish load do you suppose steve tyree keeps in his propagation systems? More or less than the average display tank? If he's smart lots! or he might use sharks like Tropicorium. One of the reasons Borneman may advise against heavy skimming may be seen with stylophora sp. Stylophora may have a mutalistic relationship with schools of damselfish "The damselfish gains protection in the branches and the coral benefits from the fish's waste material. In fact, growth rates are significantly higher in Stylophora corals inhabited by damsels"1 Sprung has pointed out many coral colonies have large schools of damsels, cardinals or anthias that provide large amount of nitrogenous compounds the coral will use. Besides nitrogenous compounds fish feces also have surprising ly large amounts of calcium and magnesium carbonates as part of the osmoregulatory process.2 Another may be because some corals are found in less than the pristine conditions like those expected on the forereef such as Anacropora which is found in "very turbid conditions on mud substrates."3 Perusing Veron's "Corals of the World", genus with species found in turbid or sedimentary waters or even mangrove swamps include Porites, Palaustrea, Madracis, Pocillopora, Povona, Montipora, Anacropora, Acropora and Astreapora. 1 Eric H. Borneman, "Aquarium Corals" pg 220 2 http://www.pnas.org/content/108/10/3865 3 Eric H. Borneman, "Aquarium Corals" pg 234 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timfish Posted June 7, 2013 Share Posted June 7, 2013 "In the above post you made light of the age of a system and n this thread here: http://www.austinreefclub.com/topic/27343-cynobacteria-are-necessary/ you posted three pictures of very nice tanks you present as evidence skimming is important. I am curious just how old the systems are but judging from the pictures I'm guessing at most the oldest is less than two years. I would encourage you to do some research and find some systems that are at least twice as old. What I have seen is systems similar to what you presented have a large risk of inexplicable dieoff as they age, several I know the owners maintained meticulously . Of the three systems pictured I will be surprised if one makes it to 5 years." Here's a few. http://reefkeeping.com/joomla/index.php/current-issue/article/119-tank-of-the-month http://reefkeeping.com/joomla/index.php/current-issue/article/131-tank-of-the-month http://reefkeeping.com/joomla/index.php/current-issue/article/107-tank-of-the-month http://reefkeeping.com/joomla/index.php/current-issue/article/109-tank-of-the-month http://reefkeeping.com/joomla/index.php/current-issue/article/126-tank-of-the-month I suspect a vast majority of the other RC TOTMs have skimmers as well, but did not list age. Does five constitute sufficient research? You couldn't find any local then? And since you didn't contradict my estimates I take it I'm correct the three systems you posted pictures of are less than 2 years old each. I had to laugh when I saw you posted TOTM tanks from Reef Central. Having to go national and then with a forum with 300,000 members if any thing corroborates my observations that systems with heavy skimming and large percentages of acroporidae corals have a less than stellar long term survival rate even with meticulous care. Even granting you a 1000 more for every TOTM since RC started that's still a very low percentage even if only a fourth of RC's members attempted it. (Actually that sounds like a really good research project following up on each tank to see how it's doing.) Considering the research now showing skimming perturbs and alters the microbial populations and corals needs for nitrogenous compounds, to the extent some corals use symbiotic cyanobacteria to fix nitrogen, I have to wonder if more people would be successful using Leng Sy's, Steve Tyree's or some other simpler approach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
victoly Posted June 7, 2013 Share Posted June 7, 2013 I only listed tanks that I have visited in person. I could add Mitch's to the list as well, but his tank isn't very old either. I'm pretty sure Clint's tank is more than two years old. The only other age i know for sure is that Richard's is only a few years old. As for picking RC, where else was I supposed to go to find large, nice looking tanks? Door to door ? It's the largest de facto reef tank database, so i find it puzzling that you would think I would go anywhere else. I'm not saying your theories are incorrect, I'm saying that a huge majority of the best looking tanks (in my opinion) on the internet (and in austin) use skimmers, and I want my tank to look more like theirs than yours. No offense meant, just my opinion on my style of husbandry and the look I'm trying to achieve. Additionally, here's RHF's opinion on the skimmer/bacteria research, and his criticism leads me to believe that you may be putting too much stock in the conclusion that you frequently make (Skimmers = reduced bacterial count = Old Tank Syndrome = Poor Coral health). In his words the study "raises more questions than it answers". If bacterial count is such an important parameter, why are we not monitoring it and adjusting practices accordingly? http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=18451325&postcount=11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sascha D. Posted June 7, 2013 Share Posted June 7, 2013 Congratulations! This is why I skip all threads about skimmers, lagoons, DSB and refugiums. +1 for DT + sump size. I bought an ASM G4X, rated to 450g and put it on my 250g system. I was disappointed in the performance and ended up selling it. I won't be buying oversized again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Mitch Posted June 7, 2013 Share Posted June 7, 2013 Fyi my tank has had water in it since Dec '09, so it's technically been running for 3.5yrs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Mitch Posted June 7, 2013 Share Posted June 7, 2013 And my $0.02 on this subject... basically it seems there's multiple ways to be successful in this hobby... for me, I couldn't imagine not running a skimmer given how much gunk it pulls out, but I concede that I'm not educated in the no-skimmer approach... it's similar to how some people are strong advocates of doing regular water changes, but there are many of us who have thriving tanks by not doing any at all... YMMV definitely applies to this hobby! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sascha D. Posted June 7, 2013 Share Posted June 7, 2013 So a few questions on skimmers....I have a 185 gallon (build thread coming soon) looking to put a 75 gallon sump that will probably be ran half full. Looking at approx 220 gallon over all volume. 1) So when looking at skimmers should I shop based on DT size or system volume? 2) What would y'all recommend seems like Bubble Magus and reef octopus seem to be popular choices? Any other helpful advise would be awesome. If anyone is selling something that would work let me know. I've run ASM and Marineland. When I buy another skimmer I will go with Reef Octopus with a modified impeller. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason & Amber Posted June 7, 2013 Author Share Posted June 7, 2013 What would you modify about the impeller? We are getting a Reef Octopus SRO 3000. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Planeden Posted June 7, 2013 Share Posted June 7, 2013 Congratulations! This is why I skip all threads about skimmers, lagoons, DSB and refugiums. +1 for DT + sump size. I bought an ASM G4X, rated to 450g and put it on my 250g system. I was disappointed in the performance and ended up selling it. I won't be buying oversized again. i guess you don't watch real housewives, either? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drift Monkey Posted June 7, 2013 Share Posted June 7, 2013 For me, skimmers (like a lot of equipment) are another tool for aquarists, but not necessarily a required component. I've never run them before...but I decided to try one out for my current build. I am leery of overskimming...but I'm keeping that in mind as I move forward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toxiq Reef Posted June 8, 2013 Share Posted June 8, 2013 I have time to chime in on my .03c, while I agree skimmers are great, they allow people to cheat some, I do feel at times a lot of the removed "waste" is not all bad. I recently downsized the skimmer on my 280 and my corals color has changed, for the better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.