my sump overflowed?

[Planeden]

So, just found an odd thing. Last night I filled my tank by pouring water in the DT and letting it just drain into the sump while all pumps were off. I figured this would make sure that i had enough to room at the top of the sump for a pump failure. I admit, i did fill the sump a bit higher than I intended (about 1" from the top).

I then turned on the pumps and ran it for a second to make sure it all worked right and then turned off the return pump. I turned off the return pump and left the powerheads on for circulation (my build thread discusses why). It's been about 12 hours and the sump seemed to have been overflowing. I bailed out about 2.5 gallons of water.

So, the reason I am posting is to see if anyone may know why it overflowed. The only thing i can figure is that the powerheads were slowly waving water into the overflow, but not enough to really notice the flow.

The water level in the DT is a little lower, but the water in the overflow is the right height. So, i'm guessing that would indicate that there is no leak in the bottom of the overflow.

I added a piece of tape at the sump waterline to see if it is slowly growing. But, if all stays the same i will have at least 24 hours before the floor will get wet again. I did turn the powerheads back on and the water does not seem to be getting up near the overflow.

Can you guys think of anything I need to check that I haven't thought of?

Thanks for your time.

[Jason & Amber]

Only thing I could think is like you said the waves were going over the overflow a little at a time.

[victoly]

bulkhead leak?

[esacjack]

Did you remember to shut off your ATO before doing the maintenance? Otherwise, your ATO will keep pumping water into the sump or dt (wherever you have the sensor) till you overflow the sump or DT.

[George Monnat Jr]

My sump overflowed once, because the anti-siphon holes in my return nozzles were clogged. Instead of the DT siphoning down top the bottom of the overflows, it siphoned down to the return nozzles. That only happens once though, it doesn't reoccur unless you turn the return pump back on and off.

[Planeden]

man you guys are fast. thanks for the responses.

I don't have an ATO, so no worries there.

For the bulkhead i would have thought the high level in the overflow would rule that out, but i see no evidence of a leak there. the return tube still has a "leak detector" from a previous leak and it is dry. I have added one to the overflow side as well. everything seemed dry when i was adding it.

in case someone needs it, my leak detectors are pieces of toilet paper or paper towel wrapped and tied around the hose, pipe, whatever. cheap, easy, and effective. learned in from a plumber friend.

[Planeden]

My sump overflowed once, because the anti-siphon holes in my return nozzles were clogged. Instead of the DT siphoning down top the bottom of the overflows, it siphoned down to the return nozzles. That only happens once though, it doesn't reoccur unless you turn the return pump back on and off.

i'm not sure i follow this. i did not build my durso, so i have never taken the time to figure out all the siphon breaks and whatnot. but, are you basically saying that if i turn my pumps on it may clear the blockage and i can turn them back off and it will be fixed? or may be, most probably, fixed?

[Juiceman]

If you don't have a check valve or siphon break in your return line, the water will back siphon into your sump when the return pump is turned off.

When you turn off your return pump, are the ends of the returns still under water in the tank?

If so, without a siphon break or check valve, the water will go down until the output of the return line is out of water.

[George Monnat Jr]

No, the return pump fills the lines with water, and when I turn the pump off it siphons back down into the sump through the pump until it reaches the bottom of the overflows and the holes in my return nozzles (to break the siphoning). If I leave the pump off, the lines stay clear of water and nothing can siphon back down. In other words, once it stops siphoning down, then the sump level remains constant.

[Planeden]

sorry guys, as i said, i am a bit ignorant on this subject. but, i think i can answer your questions. also, i have turned off the pump many times without problems while i was running leak tests and powerhead tests and all.

the return line (out of the sump, through the pump, up into a mysterious bulkhead) is connected to a wishbone like nozzle coming out of each side of the overflow. these are definitely out of the water by an inch or so when the pump is off.

the overflow box slots are maybe an inch below the top of the tank. the water level in the overflow is maintained perhaps 4" - 6" below the top of the overflow box. the durso (downturned portion) sits down there and the top of the guard is dry with the pump off. there are three holes in the top of the durso pipe. i think that these are to allow air in to quiet the overflow. i can't see whether there is another hole to act as a siphon break near the water line. i could get a mirror to check, though.

[Planeden]

No, the return pump fills the lines with water, and when I turn the pump off it siphons back down into the sump through the pump until it reaches the bottom of the overflows and the holes in my return nozzles (to break the siphoning). If I leave the pump off, the lines stay clear of water and nothing can siphon back down. In other words, once it stops siphoning down, then the sump level remains constant.

best i can tell mine works this way as well. well, usually .

[esacjack]

did you add anything to the tank physically? more rock work or anything that may have caused some displacement to occur? Also, how certain are you it overflowed out of the sump? How big are your overflows and what GPH are you pushing from your return pump? Are you T'ing off your return line and valving it off into your sump for excess pressure?

[Planeden]

did you add anything to the tank physically? more rock work or anything that may have caused some displacement to occur? Also, how certain are you it overflowed out of the sump? How big are your overflows and what GPH are you pushing from your return pump? Are you T'ing off your return line and valving it off into your sump for excess pressure?

Nothing was added. I put all the rock and sand in before filling it. I'd say I'm as close to certain as possible that it was the sump because the water was up to the rim. I think the why it got into the dump is the question.

I think the the overflow is 1.25" diameter and the return line is 1" (perhaps 3/4", I'd have to measure to be sure). Pump output is between 300 and 600 gph. I'm not sure how to calculate it. If elbows before the pump count it is 300 gph, if they don't count it is 600 gph. None of the sizes have changed from the way I bought it.

There are no tees. Just a flex line hose between the pump and the tank.

Just to update: there is still no sign of leakage from the bulkheads. Also, the water level in the sump is at the same level it was at couple of hours ago. The return pump is still off, and the powerheads seem to be pushing water to about 1/2" below the overflow. Surface tension on the overflow may have been letting it creep higher before. I'm keeping an eye on the wet line on the overflow, too.

[esacjack]

How big is the display and sump? Any chance you can upload a picture of the plumbing/overflow/return areas? also any areas subjected to the flooding.

[(Bio)³]

When you poured into the top tank did you pour into the overflow or into the display part?

[Planeden]

How big is the display and sump? Any chance you can upload a picture of the plumbing/overflow/return areas? also any areas subjected to the flooding.

About 40 up top and 20 in the sump. Will these pictures work http://www.austinreefclub.com/topic/26847-first-time-build/?p=205807 ? There is a cleaner picture of the sump in the original post, but it was before i removed the skimmer and added the GAC reactor.

As for pictures of the affected area, it had leaked out of the stand onto the floor. Has been cleaned up.

I can snap more pictures if needed.

[Planeden]

When you poured into the top tank did you pour into the overflow or into the display part?

Display only.

[esacjack]

did the skimmer overflow? (checking the pictures now)

[(Bio)³]

So when you turned the pump off you filled, raising the already siphoned and broke top tank. You filled it enough to allow it to either raise and go over the overflow or back siphon through the return. You monitored the lower tank and then restarted, only accounting for what was seen in the lower tank rise and not the amount it took to raise the dt before filling the sump.

When you turned off the pump all of it siphoned down and overflowed. You put more water in than you realized?

Just my guess at what happened.

[Planeden]

did the skimmer overflow? (checking the pictures now)

No skimmer. Also, the GAC reactor was off. Only power on the tank is the light and the two powerheads.

[Planeden]

So when you turned the pump off you filled, raising the already siphoned and broke top tank. You filled it enough to allow it to either raise and go over the overflow or back siphon through the return. You monitored the lower tank and then restarted, only accounting for what was seen in the lower tank rise and not the amount it took to raise the dt before filling the sump.When you turned off the pump all of it siphoned down and overflowed. You put more water in than you realized?Just my guess at what happened.

The tank was empty. It was being filled for the first time. I poured water into the DT, partially because it is easier, but also to try to avoid adding too much water and overflowing my tank . So toward the end I added water half a pitcher at a time and waited for the water to stop draining. After everything was filled I just turned on everything for a few minutes to see if there were any problems.

I finished filling at about 2:00 AM. no water was on the floor at 6:00 AM when I went to bed. None was on the floor when I got up at 10:00. At 2-3 in the afternoon my girlfriend found the water. Granted, water may have been in the stand for a while before it was found on the floor. But, when I had turned off the pumps before, the back flow was much quicker and would not have taken 12 hours to be noticed.

Oh, and I have almost done what you said when I first filled it for my leak test . I also added too much to the sump while things were running and almost overflowed when I tested the power off. So, maybe I should sell my sump, I may just not be cut out for this level of omplexity .

[+Capt. Obvious]

Siphoned back?

[Planeden]

Siphoned back?

Shrug. Since i filled it before the pump was turned on I'm not sure where it would have cycled back from. Also, it must have happened quite slowly.

[esacjack]

What about the return plumbing? is it possible something is loose that may cause it to pump half its pressure into the DT and the rest back into the sump? Somehow or another, your sump is getting more water than your return pump can handle. Unless you had a power outage and then the reverse siphon stopped when it went below your standpipe height. But if you have a check valve, that wouldnt be an issue, unless the check valve was bad as well...

What about critters? Are you missing any snails? Did something backup in the bubble trap in your sump?

[Planeden]

I'm setting up the tank for the first time, so nothing is in it other than substrate, rock, and a dead shrimp.

I set up the tank last night and added mud to the fuge. The mud said to let it it for three days without water movement, so I dont have the return pump on. So, no water should be glowing through the overflow as none is going into the tank...but see note below on this. I have the powerheads running in the DT to circulate water to start cycling. I can't find my heater at the moment, so the powerheads is the only thing that is on in the tank.

Now for the hitch on the "should". I moved my gurgle trap, or whatever the glass box is that the overflow flows into in the sump. There is a small drip; about one drop every 2 seconds, coming out of the overflow. I have turned off the powerheads to see if that stops. If not I must have a very slow leak in my durso or something. It is coming from inside the pipe and not the outside. So, it must not be the bulkhead that is leaking.

If that doesn't stop soon, I may just drain (mostly) the sump and see how low the water gets in the overflow to get an idea how low the leak is.