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Best way to water change?


ChaosFyre

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i give unlimited advice to aggies, too. i just feel kinda sorry for them :).

clearly most of you, despite your disadvantages, have much more knowledge about reefs than i do, though.

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Good point ckyuv. I kind of feel like through all the testing methods, gear selections, and arguments about what parameters are appropriate for what, thing thing that the OP can take away is...

Your goals and your livestock will dictate your tank husbandry. There are more ways to keep a reef than there are to skin a cat. Just depends on your budget and what you want to stare at in your home. I'm one of the newer reefers on this site and of all the advice I've personally asked for and read for others, that seems to sum it up. I now treat reef keeping like a problem/solution scenario. I desire something for my tank, I make it happen within my means. I don't like this or that? I research and fix it for whatever way works best. There are a few obvious absolute right and wrong things to do, but most of it comes down to your specific goals. And then there is alot of gray area. Hope that helps

You are absolutely right. I agree with this completely. I like to do a lot of research, and if I can find a solution I can afford, I'll happily go with it. If not, and its something big, (like my skimmer) I'll save up for it!

And yes, the biggest proof of that is this: I use tap water! Everyone uses RODi water, but it seems wasteful, expensive, and its taking nutrients out of the water that you have to put back in if you have coral that need dosing... It does prevent nuisance algae, but I've never had a problem with that. And I'm sure there are things in some tap water that certain corals don't like, but I've got (almost) dummy-proof corals lol. smile.png

You wouldn't believe how many doom-sayers were nagging on me about using tap-- "You'll have an algae explosion no matter what you do, its inevitable etc etc".

Well maybe its just the BCS water here, but a lot of people in town use straight tap for SW tanks.

I have been using tap water for 40 years. Straight into the tank from the Aquifier. Patrick

Patrick, do you use water conditioner? I have some stuff that has sulfur in it and absorbs chlorine, ammonia, and chloramine, and detoxifies nitrate and nitrite. I add about a cap full for every 50 gallons. Its called Prime, freshwater and saltwater, by Seachem. I've had the same bottle for about 6 months, and it was only $10.

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But, as a beginner, everything is new and exciting. I'm sure 5 years down the line I'll be sick of xenia and will have moved on to hard corals.

I'm way off topic. I might have to move this to private conversation lol...

I'm definately with you on the first part. Not sure about the second. I am not as big of a fan of the SPS that many others seem to be. I think a few SPS mixed in may look nice, but I don't like them enough to dedicate a whole tank to them.

Which works out well for me since the ones I do really like are supposed to be easier.

Can I just say, your tank seems to be doing quite well, with the exception of the Xenia. It seems that a lot of the tests you are considering, and dosing you are talking about, and for more advanced things that you don't have. I may be wrong (using my normal don't know much caveat). But just be careful about doing too many things at once. Of course, feel free to tell me to shut up and mind my own business.

No, I think you and everyone else are completely right about me getting ahead of myself. I am just be a worry-wort!

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ALL PHOTOSYNTHETIC CORAL REQUIRE NITRATE TO EXIST.

Patrick

Hey Patrick, that's an interesting fact. Could you find some scientific documents supporting the statement? I'd love to read up on it.

Here's one: http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/986496?uid=3739656&uid=2133&uid=2&uid=70&uid=4&uid=3739256&sid=21102053270343

Like I said ealier I do not test for nitrates but a common reason I have suspect people so often are advised to keep nitrates low is typically with measurable ammounts, as in 20, 40 or higher ppm or mg/l, is indicative of an aquarist that is not doing thier maintenace(but not necessarilly so). Corals and fish can tolerate surprisingly high levels of nitrates. One down side though is high nitrates can cause accelerated coral growth making for a weaker skeleton1 While Delbeek and Sprung point out the DISSOLVED nitrate (NO3-N) levels of natural seawater off Waikiki Aquarium measure 8 ppb (.008 mg/l) they reccomend for reef aquaria nitrate levels should be less than 1 ppm nitrate-nitrogen "ideally but need not be maintained so low"1. Keep in mind if you are using a test kit that is measuring nitrate ion and not nitrate-nitrogen your reading is about 4.4x higher.

Phosphates and nitrogen (as ammonium and/or nitrites and/or nitrates) is essential and are limiting nutrients for plants and algae which includes the symbiotic dinoflagellates corals use. Too low and the plant or algae dies. This may not neccesarily kill the coral as they are capable of living without their symbionts. The mistake should not be made that reef systems in the wild are low nutrient systems, here's an interesting quote by Charles Delbeek "When I see the colors of some of these low nutrient tanks I can't help but be reminded of bleached coral reefs . . . Our crystal clear aquaria do not come close to the nutrient loads that swirl around natural reefs"2. This was echoed by Dr. Gerald Heslinga, ipsf.com, in a conversation with Subsea I overheard at NextWave 2011 in Dallas.

1 Delbeek and Sprung "The Reef Aquarium" Vol III pg 175 & 176

2 Coral Nov/Dec 2010 pg 127

This is a great take-away, thank you. Then maybe the nitrate spike WAS responsible for that bit of coral growth after all. Since I have soft corals, would you recommend just leaving it between 20-40 ppm?

I have serious doubts that a nitrate spike was the cause of a growth in coral of just about any variety. In terms of efficiency, macro and nuisance algae are able to take and use those nutrients at a much more rapid pace than any coral that I'm familiar with. I would expect an algal bloom to take place *before* i saw an increase in coral growth rates.

IMO, 20-40 ppm is too high and it's too easy to export (water change, skimmer, fuge, whatever method) to let it get that high. It has been my experience that phosphate is going to be the parameter that you need to be pickier about watching. You might have some nitrate swings come and go without noticing, but you are very likely to get GHA or cyano if your phosphate isn't under control.

Like most have said here, it's like cooking: When you start out you definitely need to measure and fret, but as you do it longer you can just tell when something isn't right wrt to NO3/PO3. Alk/Ca are a different story, but with the stock you currently have, those parameters are not as important until you start to get into the more demanding acros/SPS.

ALL PHOTOSYNTHETIC CORAL REQUIRE NITRATE TO EXIST.

Patrick

Hey Patrick, that's an interesting fact. Could you find some scientific documents supporting the statement? I'd love to read up on it.

Here's one: http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/986496?uid=3739656&uid=2133&uid=2&uid=70&uid=4&uid=3739256&sid=21102053270343

Like I said ealier I do not test for nitrates but a common reason I have suspect people so often are advised to keep nitrates low is typically with measurable ammounts, as in 20, 40 or higher ppm or mg/l, is indicative of an aquarist that is not doing thier maintenace(but not necessarilly so). Corals and fish can tolerate surprisingly high levels of nitrates. One down side though is high nitrates can cause accelerated coral growth making for a weaker skeleton1 While Delbeek and Sprung point out the DISSOLVED nitrate (NO3-N) levels of natural seawater off Waikiki Aquarium measure 8 ppb (.008 mg/l) they reccomend for reef aquaria nitrate levels should be less than 1 ppm nitrate-nitrogen "ideally but need not be maintained so low"1. Keep in mind if you are using a test kit that is measuring nitrate ion and not nitrate-nitrogen your reading is about 4.4x higher.

Phosphates and nitrogen (as ammonium and/or nitrites and/or nitrates) is essential and are limiting nutrients for plants and algae which includes the symbiotic dinoflagellates corals use. Too low and the plant or algae dies. This may not neccesarily kill the coral as they are capable of living without their symbionts. The mistake should not be made that reef systems in the wild are low nutrient systems, here's an interesting quote by Charles Delbeek "When I see the colors of some of these low nutrient tanks I can't help but be reminded of bleached coral reefs . . . Our crystal clear aquaria do not come close to the nutrient loads that swirl around natural reefs"2. This was echoed by Dr. Gerald Heslinga, ipsf.com, in a conversation with Subsea I overheard at NextWave 2011 in Dallas.

1 Delbeek and Sprung "The Reef Aquarium" Vol III pg 175 & 176

2 Coral Nov/Dec 2010 pg 127

This is a great take-away, thank you. Then maybe the nitrate spike WAS responsible for that bit of coral growth after all. Since I have soft corals, would you recommend just leaving it between 20-40 ppm?

I have serious doubts that a nitrate spike was the cause of a growth in coral of just about any variety. In terms of efficiency, macro and nuisance algae are able to take and use those nutrients at a much more rapid pace than any coral that I'm familiar with. I would expect an algal bloom to take place *before* i saw an increase in coral growth rates.

IMO, 20-40 ppm is too high and it's too easy to export (water change, skimmer, fuge, whatever method) to let it get that high. It has been my experience that phosphate is going to be the parameter that you need to be pickier about watching. You might have some nitrate swings come and go without noticing, but you are very likely to get GHA or cyano if your phosphate isn't under control.

Like most have said here, it's like cooking: When you start out you definitely need to measure and fret, but as you do it longer you can just tell when something isn't right wrt to NO3/PO3. Alk/Ca are a different story, but with the stock you currently have, those parameters are not as important until you start to get into the more demanding acros/SPS.

Okay, so if I'm not seeing algae blooms then don't worry about phosphates. And don't worry about alk/ca unless I get finicky SPS corals. And I kind of agree with the 20-40 being too high. Right now my nitrates are between 0-5 ppm and I like it there. Everything seems happy.

Also, I have decided it was the lights causing the growth. In the past few days I have noticed baby everythings, everywhere. I think I was worrying prematurely about the growth. I had a frag of 3 paly polyps that has doubled, the GSP has double and it was already a palm-size fragment, and my eye of rah already filled in the piece I fragged off a couple weeks ago, and some of my other 1 or 2 head fragments of palys or zoas have also doubled. Also, I am seeing a huge size increase in zoas that were miniature in someone elses tank and had been miniature in my tank... until now. I'm getting MONSTROUS size zoa heads, and the stalks are at least a good inch long on my eye of rah. Also, the anthelia has lots of babies in density, but isn't really spreading out yet (but thats not really surprising, I guess).

The only thing left to worry about is that bit of "rot" showing up on the anthelia. Even after the massive water changes, it wasn't defeated. I'm thinking its the salinity, and I just bought a D-D saltwater refractometer for $22 off of ebay. Its brand new, comes with a hard case and all the parts. You can read about why its a bit special here:

http://reefbuilders.com/2010/07/12/dd-seawater-refractometer-scaled-calibrated-seawater-saltwater/

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Get a pump as clarkii suggests. Make you MUCH happier. For carrying the water out, why not get a platform with wheels to move your bucket around easier?

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Get a pump as clarkii suggests. Make you MUCH happier. For carrying the water out, why not get a platform with wheels to move your bucket around easier?

I don't need a pump. I need a way to get water from the bathtub to the tank on the other side of the house, not from my 20 gallon mixing bucket into the sump. I use a little 2 gallon bucket to scoop water from my 20 gallon mixing bucket and pour it into my sump, which is about 2 inches away.

As for hauling the actual mixing bucket from the bathtub to the tank, nothing with wheels would work because there are stair-steps from the bathtub to the tank. We used to fill the 20 gallon mixing bucket in the bathtub, and then carry it across the house to the tank (which was the problem). I don't see how a pump could help with that. smile.png

However, we decided heated water is not necessary and now use a water hose from outside. We set the 20 gallon mixing bucket in front of the tank, use the water hose to fill it, then we add salt, and use a 2 gallon bucket to move the fresh saltwater into the sump, which takes no effort at all. It takes a bit longer to fill up the 20 gal with a hose instead of a bathtub, but we no longer have to tear up our hands lifting 20 gallons of water.

Thanks for the suggestion though. wink.png

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