Rick & Kenda Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 I want to cram as many fish as I case into my 55gal FOWLR. I do to plan to have predatory species and I will try to avoid species that require lots of swim space or territory. So the basic question is, what is the best method or system of overall filtration that allows for the highest capacity of fish and inverts? I will use a sump for sure but I am trying to decide of a large bioball/skimmer would give me what I want or if a canister filter would do a better job or maybe the two in tandem? I am also open to macro in the sump/refugium or additional LR, live sand or live mud. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Capt. Obvious Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 I recommend against this. ( "cram as many fish as I case can(sic)") with that being said: depends on the method you want to use. I'd recommend strong biological (mud and macro) and mechanical (filtration filter floss, carbon and skimmer) actually...I'd recommend against this still Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jestep Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 The biggest problem is that there are zero saltwater fish that aren't territorial. Even chromis or cardinals destroy eachother if there's not enough space. As far as highest capacity goes, a large sump with a equally large bio-pellet reactor and skimmer. Will probably need to supplement GFO for PO4 reduction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingjames Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 +1 for what captain obvious and jstep said, live rock is also a plus too, either in sump or dt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Capt. Obvious Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 small small small gobies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Capt. Obvious Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 +1 to plenty of liverock as well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
victoly Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 I'm in the camp that advises against this on ethical grounds. On technical grounds, bioballs or a sulfur denitrator can deal with massive fishloads if you're willing to forego corals. I'm not saying it can't be done, it's just not too difficult to wipe out a tank of corals with either of those two nutrient reduction methods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ckyuv Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 I would get a good size skimmer and run gfo/carbon reactor. IMO water changes are the best filtration method, I try and do them every week but sometimes it's 2 weeks. U gettin a fuzzy dwarf lion lol? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Capt. Obvious Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 I would get a good size skimmer and run gfo/carbon reactor. IMO water changes are the best filtration method, I try and do them every week but sometimes it's 2 weeks. U gettin a fuzzy dwarf lion lol? I think he meant to say "do not plan to" about the predator Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ckyuv Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 He could still get a fuzzy dwarf, I still want one but I wana see someone else with one first Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick & Kenda Posted May 13, 2013 Author Share Posted May 13, 2013 Yes, I meant DO NOT PLAN to have predatory fish. Capt., maybe cram was a bad word. I am wondering the best filtration system to have the most fish count while still maintaining a healthy tank. Since I am going FOWLR, I'd like to get a nice variety of livestock fish but I want there to still be a good water quality and so on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Capt. Obvious Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 add them slowly have a good clean up crew lots of rock good sump and refugium mud and macro good skimmer and water changes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinB Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 Another note, you mentioned predator fish and also inverts...the two don't play well together usually. Your clean up crew is going to have to be limited to what won't get eaten. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Capt. Obvious Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 See above: he will NOT have predatory fish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Mcjudge Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 I am only going to throw this out there, and I don't have any experience with the system but from what I have read isn't zeovit the most notorious for creating the lowest nutrient tanks to date? Would that not be the the best possible route? As well as having the automatic rotation for the most consistency? http://reefbuilders.com/2012/03/07/zeolite-tumbler-avast-marine/ Still wouldn't recommend it!!! And not to mention you would need some kind of aeration, so a skimmer as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Capt. Obvious Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 Zeovit for a fish only + live rock setup would be a GIAGANTIC waste of money. Not to mention that reactor is approx $600, designed to hold 2 liters o media (you would need about .4 liters) and they are sold out (I happen to own one) Bio pellets would be a better route Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jestep Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 Biopellets and a good skimmer will go a long way and would be cheap. It's also pretty much maintinence free with the exception of emptying the skimmer cup and adding more pellets every 3 months to a year, depending on loading. You'll most likely get nitrate to near zero, but they aren't especially good at PO4 removal. After a few months GFO is often needed to combat cyano and dyno outbreaks. Slowly stocking is a huge benefit as it allows the tank to gradually work up to a higher load. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subsea Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 You have been giving many good suggestions on biological filtration. It is my opinion that live rock is an expensive method for bio filtration. Excessive live rock interferes with circulation causing secondary problems. Substrate provides maximum surface area for bacteria to colonize. In your display, use aroggonite substrate less than 2". I like Caribsea Florida Crushed Coral at 1". In your refugium, use a mud/macro filter. I like Capt Obvious suggestion of dividing sump in three sections with return pump in the middle and skimmer and refugium on opposite ends. If you want a lot of movement with fish, consider mollies as a good herbivore. Patrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timfish Posted May 14, 2013 Share Posted May 14, 2013 Back in 1992 or 1993 there was an article in FAMA that looked at how much food could be processed in a 30 gallon total system with bioballs and a shallow reverse flow UG and after conditioniing it was able to process the equivalent of a pound of dry food a day. Another study I'm aware of done by the Georga Fisheries Dept. with Rainbow Trout was able to raise and maintain 7.9 puonds of fish in 8.3 pounds of water. The problem with keeping a high stocking level is not limited by the filtering capacity of the aquarium system but by the fishes attitude and teritoriality. You also need to realize many of the fish we get are still immature juviniles and you should expect personality changes and issues as they mature. As the adult size of many fish is influenced by the social structure with other specimens of the same (and sometimes similar) species you will have difficulty predicting the size of fish when mature. Also keep in mind if a fishes length doubles it's mass will most likely quadruple at least. I have never been able to fill a tank as full as I think the system can handle because the fish that have been added establish thier territories and do not accept new comers. I also know from experience these systems and many of the fish we keep should last decades if properly cared for. Maintaining a light fish load versus a heavy fish load increases the likelyhood of long term success. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Planeden Posted May 14, 2013 Share Posted May 14, 2013 I'm trying to wrap my head around getting 8 lbs. of fish in a gallon of water. I mean physically, how does on do that? Perhaps I need to weigh my fish. Maybe they are heavier than I think they are. Perhaps on the subject of the tank, I'm trying to cram 20-30 fish into my 55 gal freshwater tank. Most of them will be less than 2" when mature (ottos, neons, and cardinal tetras). Biggest concern we have is finding fish that won't eat them. The tank has been estabished for 7 years, has a 3" sand bed, and filtered with an eheim 2217 filter rated for a 160 gallon tank. Filtration is not our concern, it is finding fish that will have swimming room in all layers of the tank they like. And again, having fish that won't eat each other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick & Kenda Posted May 14, 2013 Author Share Posted May 14, 2013 You have been giving many good suggestions on biological filtration. It is my opinion that live rock is an expensive method for bio filtration. Excessive live rock interferes with circulation causing secondary problems. Substrate provides maximum surface area for bacteria to colonize. In your display, use aroggonite substrate less than 2". I like Caribsea Florida Crushed Coral at 1". In your refugium, use a mud/macro filter. I like Capt Obvious suggestion of dividing sump in three sections with return pump in the middle and skimmer and refugium on opposite ends. If you want a lot of movement with fish, consider mollies as a good herbivore. Patrick Yes, some very good recommendations. I think I am going to use a bioball wet/dry and an over-sized skimmer. I plan to build the sump as you describe, return pump ion the middle with skimmer and refugium on each side. The aragonite is what I will use. Does a 2" bed have a benefit over a deeper one? Also, I've never done a mud refugium but it is something I want to try. What is the difficulty level for this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
innate1 Posted May 14, 2013 Share Posted May 14, 2013 Hey Rick, welcome! Not every question will get your spelling corrected and everyone up on a soap box I promise. Correct me if I'm wrong but you want a tank with a lot to look at. I think the goby rout would let you put more fish in your tank. When I started in sw they pounded the rule 1" of fish for every gallon, which as general rules go they have all kinds of exceptions. I would suggest that you spend some time looking at the types of fish you might like and then reading up on them. If I only had one fish it would be my bi color blenny as he is the most active and has a cool personality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Capt. Obvious Posted May 14, 2013 Share Posted May 14, 2013 I don't think anyone was getting on a soapbox, we were just recommending against overpopulation. The spelling errors led some to believe he was going the predator route, which caused some confusion...all in all I think everyone gave good advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(Bio)³ Posted May 14, 2013 Share Posted May 14, 2013 Hey Rick, welcome! Not every question will get your spelling corrected and everyone up on a soap box I promise. Correct me if I'm wrong but you want a tank with a lot to look at. I think the goby rout would let you put more fish in your tank. When I started in sw they pounded the rule 1" of fish for every gallon, which as general rules go they have all kinds of exceptions. I would suggest that you spend some time looking at the types of fish you might like and then reading up on them. If I only had one fish it would be my bi color blenny as he is the most active and has a cool personality. I saw this and read back through the thread thinking, "I missed a soapbox moment" But I didnt really see one. I did see a lot of sound advice given and the OP is working on a good path that suites them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
innate1 Posted May 14, 2013 Share Posted May 14, 2013 Methinks thou protests too much. I recommend against this. ( "cram as many fish as I case can(sic)") with that being said: depends on the method you want to use. I'd recommend strong biological (mud and macro) and mechanical (filtration filter floss, carbon and skimmer) actually...I'd recommend against this still Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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