Timfish Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 Thought I 'd post this picture of an acro colony that has both different colors and different growth form and polyp extension influenced by the water flow over it. The left side is pretty much completely green with a tight dense growth form. The photo's don't show it very well (smart phone is still smarter than me ) but right side is mostly brown with just green tips, a more open growth form and very good polyp extension. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juiceman Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 Cool! Gotta love it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bogdan Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 Does that mean that water flow is more "important" than the amount of light, as far as the coral color is concerned? Any comment on that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FarmerTy Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 Pretty cool observation! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timfish Posted November 9, 2012 Author Share Posted November 9, 2012 Does that mean that water flow is more "important" than the amount of light, as far as the coral color is concerned? Any comment on that? Very good question and I don't have an answer except for "maybe". Here's a link to a two tone Birdsnest that's caused by lighting conditions I posted a couple of months back3. What intrigues my about this acro is there is very good research showing coloration is influenced by light intensity and pigmentation is increased as protection against too much light.1, 2 The light distribution on this colony clearly demonstrates the issue is more complex as the distribution of the green pigmentation is clearly influenced by water flow as well as light intensity (if the colony was under less intense lighting the green pigmentation would be less). What I do not know and don't have the resources to easliy determine is what the is distribution of the symbiotic Sympodinium spp dinoflagellates. Is the brown coloration indicative of higher concentrations of these algae, is there actually a variation in the distribution of the algae through out the colony? Is it indicative of different species being used in the same colony or is it indicative of different feeding mechanisms? 1 http://www.int-res.c...oa/m364p097.pdf 2 http://jeb.biologist...13/21/3644.full 3 http://www.austinree...-12-inch-makes/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bogdan Posted November 10, 2012 Share Posted November 10, 2012 Common sense tells me that the coloration depends on more factors than just light. I am pretty sure the water flow is important as well as alkalinity, Mg concentration et cetera. The problem is to find the optimal conditions for each species. Corals (photosynthetic) need the dinoflagellates, however too many cause the color to become brownish, too little results in bleaching and coral death. Thanks for the links. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timfish Posted May 23, 2019 Author Share Posted May 23, 2019 Bump. What surprised me when I showed the pictures to Dana Riddle was his comment that this was the first photographic evidence of water flow being the influencing factor in coloration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reefpuck Posted May 23, 2019 Share Posted May 23, 2019 Anything change with that colony you originally posted? Got a buddy who's got great color and growth from his sps... but they're thin branched and not the best polyp extension. Flame angel could be a polyp extension culprit... among other things... but the thin branched growth makes me wonder if its it's a flow pattern/strength issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+BobcatReefer Posted May 23, 2019 Share Posted May 23, 2019 BRS has been focusing on this in their recent video series. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timfish Posted May 23, 2019 Author Share Posted May 23, 2019 10 hours ago, Reefpuck said: Anything change with that colony you originally posted? Got a buddy who's got great color and growth from his sps... but they're thin branched and not the best polyp extension. Flame angel could be a polyp extension culprit... among other things... but the thin branched growth makes me wonder if its it's a flow pattern/strength issue. Wish I did. The client moved to San Jose. Initially after shipping them thier corals things went well then power was lost to the system and most everything was lost. :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timfish Posted May 23, 2019 Author Share Posted May 23, 2019 51 minutes ago, BobcatReefer said: BRS has been focusing on this in their recent video series. It's good to see someone trying research this! Sadly disseminating it still has to deal with people unwilling to update their understanding of how reef systems work. I"ll read a quote by resarcher's saying "the link between coral science and aquaculture is still poorly developed." then I have individuals who likes to present themselves as people of science tell me the research I post doesn't apply, and they'll acknowledge they haven't had the time to read it, I'm dumbfounded sometimes. The whole thing with phosphates is a perfect example; for a couple decades reefers were told to keep phosphate at or below .003 mg/l (ppm) and even though Wiedenmann and D' Angelo published thier research 7 years ago showing how detrimental it was to corals it's still firmly entrenched in many aquarists dogma 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post FarmerTy Posted May 24, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted May 24, 2019 It's good to see someone trying research this! Sadly disseminating it still has to deal with people unwilling to update their understanding of how reef systems work. I"ll read a quote by resarcher's saying "the link between coral science and aquaculture is still poorly developed." then I have individuals who likes to present themselves as people of science tell me the research I post doesn't apply, and they'll acknowledge they haven't had the time to read it, I'm dumbfounded sometimes. The whole thing with phosphates is a perfect example; for a couple decades reefers were told to keep phosphate at or below .003 mg/l (ppm) and even though Wiedenmann and D' Angelo published thier research 7 years ago showing how detrimental it was to corals it's still firmly entrenched in many aquarists dogmaIf anybody missed the subtle jab, Tim is talking about me as a person that likes to present himself as a person of science (not that my degree in Ocean and Coastal Resources or my 10 years of being an actual scientist plays any part in that maybe being somewhat factual)... If you're going to dig your heels in Tim, at least call me by name sir. This is also the second time I have seen you utter the same gripe about a person of science and not taking the time to read and refute. I've already told you last year via PM that I don't have the luxury of free time that you do. I have a wife and kid and both our families live in town... So curling up with the newest reef research is not at the top of my priority list as I'm happy just to have time to feed my fish before I go wash bottles or do laundry. It is not out of lack of desire to read is the issue... It is the time constraint so I do the best I can. Honestly, you're the only reason I don't spend time on ARC anymore. I'm got tired of having a successful acropora dominated tank and trying to share advice that worked for me to achieve that tank get thrown back in my face by someone that just regurgitates articles they read and has never produced a beautiful acro-dominated tank that I've ever seen. I've seen your tank at your house... Stags (the easiest of acros) with burnt tips and STN at the base with glass so dirty I could hardly see them... And I've seen your body of work with your clients in person and on video. None of what I have seen I would consider maintained or created by a person I would consider an acro expert. Where's the Hawkins echinata you were going to grow in a tap water topoff system of yours? I saw 3 pictures of it and then it was never mentioned again. The disappointing part is you've seen my tank in person and was even amazed at how I was able to achieve the colors I do from the acros. I don't understand how you can refute the level of success I've had with them and my experience with them that you've seen with your own eyes. That my advice may actually may be helpful to those trying to achieve the same type of tank. I'm not running a softie tank here... So my advice is geared towards those trying to achieve the same style of tank that I run with full acros. That's fine if you don't agree with that for your type of tanks... But my advice was never geared for that type of system so I don't understand where you have a leg to stand on to counter my advice when I've never seen you run an acro-dominant tank? I don't sit around and tell people how to run tap water ATO tanks with no skimmers... I have no leg to stand on with those type of systems. I don't really appreciate the back handed jabs at me... Even when I had left the forum already. I don't know if my absence is why you were bolstered to do it again but just please stop and move on. You are behaving like you still have a chip on your shoulder. I'm not even around anymore. Regarding low phosphates... I keep mine at 0.03 ppm. This is what 0.03 ppm of phosphates looks like in my tank. I don't consider my corals starved and unhealthy. I'm not entrenched in old reefer dogma... I run that based on my experience with color and health in correlation with phosphate levels in my tank and found that the lower end pulls better colors for me and keeps my tank more stable while increasing growth. There are going to be anomalies with any rule but I stick with what I've seen in my own acro dominated systems the last 7 years I've been running them. If you're running a softie tank... Don't keep it that low... But that's not who I am trying to advise these days. They'd be better off listening to someone else's advice for those type of tanks. I haven't run one in 7 years so I'm a bad resource. I've said my peace. Feel free to say whatever you need to say to get it off your chest and let's just move on. I'd rather be spending time with my kid then thinking about this stuff... That's why I left in the first place Tim. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reburn Posted May 24, 2019 Share Posted May 24, 2019 (edited) Finally someone said it. I, like Ty have spend the better part of 5 years growing corals and killing corals and a literal lifetime growing plants and crops and trees and roses and anything else i wanted to grow. Ty has been at corals longer. I have found little evidence to link most aquarium based academic papers to fact in the real world. There are simply too many variables in our aquariums to create any thing that could be slightly mistaken as scientific procedure. And yes I have read many of these papers and found 50% of the time the conclusion to be 100% opposite of what I have experienced in the real world. In simple english if it works for other and you the "why and how" is noise. Working for years isn't an accident or an isolated incidence. Edited May 24, 2019 by Reburn clarification 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reburn Posted May 24, 2019 Share Posted May 24, 2019 and further, Many industy giants have know for decades that light and flow play a big factor on color and growth and polyp extension. Why else would so many vendors list those specific vital stats on there pages??????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddius-maximus Posted May 24, 2019 Share Posted May 24, 2019 I was at Ty’s house a couple days ago. If he told me his secret to his ridiculous tank was throwing dirty gym socks into it, I’d be at the gym getting a membership right now 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reefpuck Posted May 24, 2019 Share Posted May 24, 2019 Sorry to hear Ty...been wondering why you haven't been on here as much. I obviously didn't see whats going on...that's probably because I browse quickly over everything before getting back to work (busy life as well). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reefpuck Posted May 24, 2019 Share Posted May 24, 2019 56 minutes ago, eddius-maximus said: I was at Ty’s house a couple days ago. If he told me his secret to his ridiculous tank was throwing dirty gym socks into it, I’d be at the gym getting a membership right now Same here. I think he's throwing those delicious egg rolls he orders for his group meetings in his sump. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timfish Posted May 29, 2019 Author Share Posted May 29, 2019 ouch For clarification Ty, the tank you saw at my house was water, sand, rock, fish and corals was from a 450 gallon UNLS system that had to be dissmantelled on very short notice. I do feel some ownership as I built the 350 gallon acrylic tank, stand and canopy and installed the aquascaping. My friend, who technically owned it, was very aggressive about keeping itas an UNLS and when I tested with Red Sea and Elos there were no detectable nitrates or phosphates. Unfortunately after moving there were repeated brown jelly infections that would reappear a month or two after dipping the corals. As annoying as it was losing the A. echinada it it turn out to be a very fortuitous series of events. I was able to demonstrate iodine could be used in tank to treat tissue loss and a coral could recover. Additionally, the frustration from losing because I didn't stay on top of the anthelia motivated me to find better ways to control anthelia which led to the use of stainless steel straws. It's much simpler now to control invasive/aggressive species. As a scientist I would expect you to know the importance of being honest and accurate. So I must say I was pretty disappointed and dismayed when you lied about going 4 years without a water change. Justifying your lie by saying it wasn't a "systemic" water change, especially as it was part of fixing a problem with your reef system, struck me as inane. I can understand the emphasis on color and growth. Unfortunately there's no coralation between color and/or growth with healthy. My perception of healthy has been blown out of the water, there is just no gross physical characteristic that denotes a healthy coral. Multiple papers looking a physiological markers have shown even though a coral may appear to be "healthy" it can in fact take months for physiological markers (like internal lipid levels) to return to normal after a stress event (like simply being moved). Since many of the pathogens of corals are found in the holobiont, messing with environmental conditions can impact a coral's immune system and reduce it's resistance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.