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More Reef Keeping Myth Busters!!!!


bimmerzs

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Well, one myth he left out was the need to have a protien skimmer to keep corals. hmm.png The myth about packaged live sand seems to be more semantics than it's not alive, nitrifying bacteria is why I get it plus it doesn't need to be rinsed like dry sand does. As far as using UV Sterilizers on large tanks I've tried using micron filters and removed them to use sterilizers. Micron filters may be Mr. Murphys preference it's not mine.

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Many practices in this hobby are preference based and not always fact based. I never rinse dry sand and prefer to wet skim and use filter sock's to clear the water...again my preference. Wet live sand is just sterile dry sand with ro water and a "nitryfying bacteria" product added. I have witnessed many deliveries to LFS's and I have never seen any of it, including "live sand" delivered in a temperature controlled vehicle. I'll add these quotes from Dr. Tim on this but is still comes down to preference. As far as micron filter vs UV, a submicron filter pushing several hundred gallon's through it will definately remove more than a time/contact based option such as a UV.smile.png He's not saying it doesn't work.

The first condition is being exposed to temperatures outside the range they can survive. If the liquid in the bottle freezes' date=' the nitrifying bacteria are killed. It doesn’t matter the brand – freezing kills the nitrifying bacteria. High temperatures also can kill or damage nitrifying bacteria. If the bottle is exposed to 110°F for a day or so, the bacteria can be killed. Prolonged exposure to temperatures over 95°F drastically reduces the shelf life of nitrifying bacteria.

Unfortunately, the normal way aquarium products are distributed is awful for nitrifying bacteria. The process is that a pallet of product is shipped by a common carrier to the distributor’s (or chain store’s) warehouse. The product is not shipped in any special containers to protect against heat or cold and the truck is not temperature controlled. Once at the warehouse, the pallet is checked in and stored in the warehouse without any temperature control. The product can be in a warehouse in the middle of Texas or Arizona in the summertime, or Chicago or upstate New York in the wintertime – neither are great conditions for nitrifying bacteria.

When an order is received, the bacteria are packed just like filters or pumps – without any temperature protection. In fact, some distributors pack their trucks on Friday and leave them outside all weekend so they are ready to leave very early Monday morning. Think about the temperature in the trailer of a truck left this way in the Midwest in the wintertime – it does not matter what’s in the bottle, chances are high the nitrifying bacteria are not going to survive.

If you are ordering nitrifying bacteria from the internet, make sure the company you are placing the order with is shipping the bacteria in temperature controlled/protected box during the coldest and hottest times of the year. You might have to pay a little extra, but it will ensure you get a viable product.[/quote']

Cheers,

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Many practices in this hobby are preference based and not always fact based. . .

Then it's not myth busting is it. grin.png Dr. Tim makes a good point (far different from Mr. Murphey's discussion on the definition of "live sand") about the potential of mishandled product. Reading his quote it almost seems a certainty to happen and a good argument for buying his product. Guess I've just been lucky the last dozen years or so I've been using live sand to bypass the initial cycle period setting up an aquarium.

One of the axioms I took to heart a long time ago is the greater the diversity of species in an ecosystem the better it's inherent stability. I would first chose not to have a UV sterilizor at all on a system. To deal with an ich outbreack in a tank between a UV sterilizor and a submicron filter, having worked with both, I will chose the UV sterilizor. Two reasons I view any mechanical filtration as antithetical are: First, these "bugs" exist on a reef for a reason, we may not know many times what they are good for but arbitrarily removing everything that floats in the water may have unseen long term consequences (an anology that comes to mind is someone taking heavy doses of antibiotics to kill off bacteria that casues acne and ending up with a yeast infection that can't be cured). Second, having had a clam species successfully complete thier life cycle (sexual reproduction resulting in offspring) and with great hopes of having corals also complete thier life cycle in a display tank any mechanical filtration would render this an impossibility.

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There are guidelines to the general Saltwater tank. But, these are only guidelines. Every single tank is different.

If there is more than one tank under any roof. Each tank will be different in some way, shape or form.

That's why we have forums to share, share, share our differences and try new stuff.

As we all know, you can take a single coral frag from one colony and put it in your other tank and it will grow different. Maybe alittle flatter, taller, color will change, something.

That's what makes this hobby and business for me so great.

Thanks,

Lance Pender

Get Pumped Saltwater

Sent via Tapatalk

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Many practices in this hobby are preference based and not always fact based. . .

Then it's not myth busting is it. grin.png Dr. Tim makes a good point (far different from Mr. Murphey's discussion on the definition of "live sand") about the potential of mishandled product. Reading his quote it almost seems a certainty to happen and a good argument for buying his product. Guess I've just been lucky the last dozen years or so I've been using live sand to bypass the initial cycle period setting up an aquarium.

One of the axioms I took to heart a long time ago is the greater the diversity of species in an ecosystem the better it's inherent stability. I would first chose not to have a UV sterilizor at all on a system. To deal with an ich outbreack in a tank between a UV sterilizor and a submicron filter, having worked with both, I will chose the UV sterilizor. Two reasons I view any mechanical filtration as antithetical are: First, these "bugs" exist on a reef for a reason, we may not know many times what they are good for but arbitrarily removing everything that floats in the water may have unseen long term consequences (an anology that comes to mind is someone taking heavy doses of antibiotics to kill off bacteria that casues acne and ending up with a yeast infection that can't be cured). Second, having had a clam species successfully complete thier life cycle (sexual reproduction resulting in offspring) and with great hopes of having corals also complete thier life cycle in a display tank any mechanical filtration would render this an impossibility.

It ok to have a differing opinion however if this is your stance then I am cunfused why you do not practice proper QT method's before introducing new arrival's into your main DT system.smile.png You kinda made my point for me by saying that a submicron filter removes everything that tries to pass thru it so the more water you can pump thru it, the faster it will remove stuff. Not so with a UV, your flow rates must be maintained in order to ensure the proper contact time for whatever you are trying to rid the tank of. Ick parasite's are 0.5mm-1.0mm in size when they reach adulthood, thats 500 microns to 1000 microns( a human hair is 80um to 100um) so you really dont need a true "submicron" filter in order to capture the ick parasite. Using these would be short term due to them simply getting clogged up in a relatively shot timeframe, running for an hour or two, would remove a great deal more than any UV system over the same timeframe. I'm hoping that you do realize that UV will also kill everything that comes into contact with it, especially with the long term use that they require. It's just information, take from it what you will but I really don't see why you have the need to put down something thats posted for informational purposes. There are 1000's of way's to have a successful reef tank, hopefully sonmeone can use the posted information to help make their tank successful as well.punk.gif

Cheers,

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It ok to have a differing opinion however if this is your stance then I am cunfused why you do not practice proper QT method's before introducing new arrival's into your main DT system. . . .

Are you saying the use of a UV sterilizor is not an acceptable practice for quarintine tanks for fish and invertabrates or that you have for some reason surmised I do not quarantine my fish and invertabrates I put in my display tanks? For the record I certainly do quarintine.

. . . Ick parasite's are 0.5mm-1.0mm in size when they reach adulthood, thats 500 microns to 1000 microns . . .

Can you please give your refference for this? "Aquariology, The Science of Fish Helath" pg 285 (used by the Georgia Fisheries Dept.) gives 160 to 454 microns for the trophont (adult stage) of Cryptocaryon irritans. Roy P. E. Yanong, http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa164, gives 48 x 27 microns to 452 x 360 microns. I have met aquarists who think the white spot on the fish, which often is about 1 mm, is the parasite. This is not correct, it is a "papule" (pimple) the trophont forms when it burroughs into the skin of the fish.

. . . so you really dont need a true "submicron" filter in order to capture the ick parasite. . .

I do not understand why you are diverging from Mr. Murphy's argument for using micron technology to remove among other things protozoan parasites? To add some detail to Mr. Murphey's discussion a micron filter would have to have a filter pore size less than 20 microns to remove the infectious larval stage of "Ich" which is the same for "Velvet" (Oodinium ocellatum, different species from Cryptocaryon irritans). Brooklynella is will be easier at 58 microns. For Uronema a filter pore size will have to be less than 13 microns and for Microsporea at 1.5 microns a nominal 1 micron filter pore size will be needed.

. . . You kinda made my point for me by saying that a submicron filter removes everything that tries to pass thru it so the more water you can pump thru it, the faster it will remove stuff. Not so with a UV, your flow rates must be maintained in order to ensure the proper contact time for whatever you are trying to rid the tank of . . . Using these would be short term due to them simply getting clogged up in a relatively shot timeframe, running for an hour or two, would remove a great deal more than any UV system over the same timeframe. . .

I'm not questioning the effeciency or high removal rates that can be done with highly effecient mechanical technology. (One of the more exceptional applications I have read about achieved a near 1 to 1 ratio between fish biomass and water mass {7.9 lbs fish to 8.1 lbs water} using R.O. methodologies!) However considering the life cycle for "Ich" with 3 to 7 days for the trophont (adult), a few hours for the protomont (transitional stage that crawls around, not to be confused with the infectious tomite larval stage) and the tomont (cyst) stage of 28 days (at typical reef temperatures, up to 72 days at lower temperatures) I don't see how running a filter for a few hours is going to break the life cycle. Having used micron filters to remove parasites on both QT and display tanks I quite agree with you they will clog up "in a realtively short time" My experience flow rates can be be reduced a significant percentage in just hours with a 1/4 or 1/3 hp motor on a 100 gal. system if actually running a filter with a nominal 1 micron rating especially if an effort is made to flush detritus out from under and behind rocks. I have found maintaining the proper flow rate on a UV is not any more difficult than maintaining the flow rate on the pumps in my sump tanks and changing light bulbs in my fixtures.

Maybe I'm reading to much into this but there seems to be the implication high flow rates and micron filters may remove the protomont before it has time to settle between the adult stage and cyst stage. It seems to me the high flow rates needed to flush the protomont out from behind the rocks where a infected fish may be would just as likely lodge the protomont in the rock letting it encyst and continue the life cycle as it would flush it out.

. . . I'm hoping that you do realize that UV will also kill everything that comes into contact with it, especially with the long term use that they require. . .

I am very much aware UV kills beneficial organisms hence my preference stated in an ealier posting on this thread prefering not to use UV sterilizers on display systems. However to say it will kill everything requires the assumption the exposure rate required to kill "ich" applies to all zooplankton and phytoplankton. I do not know if this assumption is correct but the argument that inadequate flow rates in a UV sterilizer allows the parasite to survive would certainly apply to organisms that may have a higher exposure rate than "Ich".

. . . hopefully sonmeone can use the posted information to help make their tank successful as well.punk.gif

Cheers,

I could not agree with you more! grin.png

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Tim,

I did not know that you were so "long winded". I hope that you are having a bodacious day.

Being a "laissez faire" reefer, I have not used mechainical filtration in 15 years. I also subscribe to biodiversity as being healty. Dynamic equilibrium is a good thing and it requires biodiversity.

Patrick

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Since my typing skills are rather crappy, I will give a reply to your questions and then we can get back to enjoying our tanks.smile.png

1. No to the question and I'm glad QT is a part of your regime.

2. You are correct, I relied on my feeble memory and wikipedia and both failed me which highlights why it's not always always good to rely on your memory especially with stuff you don't do everyday. Always conduct proper research before starting any sort of treatment etc., and don't rely on second hand information.

3. See #2 above

4. Answered already "Not so with a UV, your flow rates must be maintained in order to ensure the proper contact time for whatever you are trying to rid the tank of". Not everybody reads directions, they buy a UV and grab a pump lying around and off they go.

5. Happy reefingbiggrin.png

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