Murftoo Posted January 12, 2018 Share Posted January 12, 2018 I had a big shipment of CUC coming in from LA that was sidetracked by UPS. It has been delayed a full 24 hours, so by the time they arrive, they will be cold and have been in bags for 2 days. I'm obviously bummed about possibly losing the poor little critters, but I'm also worried about how to best handle the ones that DO make it. My concern is that I'm going to put the survivors in my tank and then have a massive die off a day two later from the delayed effect of all that stress that will impact my whole tank. I wouldn't worry about a couple of deaths having any kind of impact, but if I had a whole bunch of them die in the caves of my live rock or while I'm not at home...? Is there anything I can do to mitigate that possibility? Or am I just being paranoid ? Tank is an otherwise healthy 85G that is a year and half old. Thank you for your advice! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juiceman Posted January 12, 2018 Share Posted January 12, 2018 Just acclimate them longer. I’m sure you may lose a few, but I’ll bet majority will be fine.Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timfish Posted January 12, 2018 Share Posted January 12, 2018 I realize this may be too late but I would use a piece of airline and a valve (or loose knot) to drip acclimate them over many hours. A drop a second is what I typically use and I often do 12 hours or longer) An air pump (a bait bucket aireator is good) will keep the water oxygenated and slowly acclimate the temperature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sascha D. Posted January 12, 2018 Share Posted January 12, 2018 11 minutes ago, Timfish said: I realize this may be too late but I would use a piece of airline and a valve (or loose knot) to drip acclimate them over many hours. A drop a second is what I typically use and I often do 12 hours or longer) An air pump (a bait bucket aireator is good) will keep the water oxygenated and slowly acclimate the temperature. Would you be concerned that injecting oxygen will cause the ammonia to become toxic? It may be a good idea to add some ammonia blocker just in case. 13 hours ago, Murftoo said: I had a big shipment of CUC coming in from LA that was sidetracked by UPS. It has been delayed a full 24 hours, so by the time they arrive, they will be cold and have been in bags for 2 days. I'm obviously bummed about possibly losing the poor little critters, but I'm also worried about how to best handle the ones that DO make it. My concern is that I'm going to put the survivors in my tank and then have a massive die off a day two later from the delayed effect of all that stress that will impact my whole tank. I wouldn't worry about a couple of deaths having any kind of impact, but if I had a whole bunch of them die in the caves of my live rock or while I'm not at home...? Is there anything I can do to mitigate that possibility? Or am I just being paranoid ? Tank is an otherwise healthy 85G that is a year and half old. Thank you for your advice! Reef Cleaners says it's okay to ship snails over 2-3 days, but other CUC may not survive. I would drip acclimate them normally and place them all face down in the same area. Some snails will remain in the shell for several hours, but if they haven't moved in 24 hours then I would count them as lost and remove. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FarmerTy Posted January 12, 2018 Share Posted January 12, 2018 If it was a fish, I'd match the temperature and salinity of the bag and dump the fish right into the QT, no drip acclimation cause that is what will probably kill it. Like Sascha eluded to, once oxygen enters the bag after you open it, the CO2 that the fish exhaled in the bag offgasses and the pH rises, causing the lesser toxic ammonium produced during shipping convert into the more toxic form ammonia which can kill the fish quite quickly.For CUC though, I am unsure though I would imagine a similar scenario. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murftoo Posted January 12, 2018 Author Share Posted January 12, 2018 Thanks for the advice everyone! UPS had pushed the shipment back AGAIN, so instead of getting them this morning, it will be sometime by 8pm. I just called Live Aquaria too since I was still uncertain and they were super helpful- they actually have a process for this. They said DO drip them, but do a fast drip. Dump as much water out as possible, just barely covering them and then do a fast drip to get that ammonia down as quickly as possible. For an extra challenge, they said to drip each bag individually so I don't combine a bag that had a bunch of snail deaths and a high level of ammonia with a relatively low ammonia bag of hermits and nuke them all. They suggested the little kid's plastic pails, which I thought was a great idea. So I'm off to buy those and some more drip line! Thanks again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sascha D. Posted January 12, 2018 Share Posted January 12, 2018 I used to think UPS was a good company, but they seem to lose a surprising number of packages. It's too bad they don't have a high tech GPS navigation system that tells them where to deliver. Oh wait! I made an order through LA last August and UPS totally lost it. I made several calls to the company and they always told me someone would call me back. Hours later I get a call from Petco saying they received my package and already acclimated the fish to their water. UPS delivered it to Petco! LiveAquaria was really good about refunding my order, but I never received a response from UPS and my lost package claim was never answered. It was so crazy that I posted the whole story here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murftoo Posted January 12, 2018 Author Share Posted January 12, 2018 What a funny story! I can't believe they survived all that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murftoo Posted January 12, 2018 Author Share Posted January 12, 2018 Okay... it's now 3pm on my second day of staying home and waiting for the package. UPS won't call me back and I'm getting seriously impatient and grumpy. The prospect of buying some sweet frags at tomorrow's frag swap is the only thing keeping me sane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timfish Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 14 hours ago, FarmerTy said: . . . no drip acclimation cause that is what will probably kill it. . . . OMG! I must be a Reef God! All the hundreds of animals I've acclimated this way over the decades and they've lived! It's not really clear how much less toxic ammonium is compared to ammonia. What I've found is authors saying "probably" or "generally accepted". I've not been able find solid research clearly showing ammonium is significantly less toxic so if you have links with specifics I would love to read them*. It is true increasing the pH (by aeration) increases the ratio of ammonia to ammonium but to get a significant change the pH has to increase to above 8.4. Changing the pH from 7.8 to 8.4 changes the ratio of ammonium/ammonia from 96.8%/3.2% to 88.3%/11.7%, just an 8% change. Based on my decades of experience I'm inclined to think this is a non issue. I'll go with increasing the oxygen levels to reduce stress on the fish. *(This seemed a bit esoteric but I did find a paper that found an error in a widely used equation for determining the ammonia/ammonium dissociation coefficient in seawater was overstating ammonia by as much as 500%. Another paper found a mysis species more sensitive to ammonia at lower pH and a fish species more sensitive at higher pH.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FarmerTy Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 OMG! I must be a Reef God! All the hundreds of animals I've acclimated this way over the decades and they've lived! [emoji38] It's not really clear how much less toxic ammonium is compared to ammonia. What I've found is authors saying "probably" or "generally accepted". I've not been able find solid research clearly showing ammonium is significantly less toxic so if you have links with specifics I would love to read them*. It is true increasing the pH (by aeration) increases the ratio of ammonia to ammonium but to get a significant change the pH has to increase to above 8.4. Changing the pH from 7.8 to 8.4 changes the ratio of ammonium/ammonia from 96.8%/3.2% to 88.3%/11.7%, just an 8% change. Based on my decades of experience I'm inclined to think this is a non issue. I'll go with increasing the oxygen levels to reduce stress on the fish. *(This seemed a bit esoteric but I did find a paper that found an error in a widely used equation for determining the ammonia/ammonium dissociation coefficient in seawater was overstating ammonia by as much as 500%. Another paper found a mysis species more sensitive to ammonia at lower pH and a fish species more sensitive at higher pH.) You are Tim. I have a shrine of you in my fish room. [emoji28] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FarmerTy Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 Quick question for you Tim. Is there ammonia/ammonium in the bag the fish were shipped in by the time it arrives to you? Of course, right?So if you had a way to remove them from that ammonia as quick as possible without harming the fish, would you do it? I just explained a way to do that. I don't know what we are even discussing anymore. Because your method has worked for you doesn't mean it's the only way. Same for me, my way isn't the only way... I'm just passing along what I know about the ammonium converting to ammonia once the bag is open due to the CO2 degassing. The original poster's scenario involved a late shipment where ammonia is going to be a huge problem and probably the main reason there will be casualties in shipping. My advice seems appropriate, to remove them from that ammonia as quick as possible. I don't understand the reason for your retort. I wasn't going after you, just offering a different opinion. I didn't even mention your advice just to avoid anything like this. It seems that didn't work out for me. [emoji19] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timfish Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 Ty, good spin. But I didn't say your recommendation would "probably kill" them like you did my recommendation to do a drip acclimation. And after the other posts I clearly needed to better explain my position and try to put into perspective some assumptions about ammonia and ammonium. I've handled lots and lots of animals over the decades. Seen them in bad shape after just 12 hours and in miraculously good shape after 48 - 72 hours. Seen 1/2 damsels in a few ounces of water do great and 1 similar damsel in the same amount of water do poorly. A drip acclimation to the QT they're going into is what I've settled on, that's what I suggested and will suggest in the future. You want to recommend your methodology that's fine, I'm not going to say it'll "probably kill" their animals Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FarmerTy Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 [emoji106][emoji106] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murftoo Posted January 14, 2018 Author Share Posted January 14, 2018 It appears to be a moot point anyway. After UPS misplaced it on Friday, they helpfully transferred them to them to another facility on Saturday (without telling me) that is closed until Monday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timfish Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 That's bad news but don't give up hope yet. Keep us posted, I'm anxious to know what survived. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murftoo Posted January 15, 2018 Author Share Posted January 15, 2018 It's not pretty so far! My whole house smells pretty awful. But I'm acclimating everything, whether it looks dead or not. I've seen some movement as they warm up- even when they looked completed dead on first take. Surprising considering that it's their 5th day in bags and it was freezing! As per LA's suggestions (I'm not taking sides here! ) I started by dumping most of the water out with them just bared covered in their own individual buckets. Then while dripping, I dump a portion of the water in their bucket out every 5 or 10 minutes to try to keep that ammonia down as much as possible. The princess buckets saved the day. Question: Since things seem to be reviving slowly, I'd like to put them all in once they are acclimated and give them another 24 hours before giving up on them, but I'm still nervous about the impact to my tank. This was actually originally CUC for both my tanks, but since not enough survived I'm acclimating all to one tank, so it's a fair amount. I'm planning on doing a couple of mini- water changes to tank today (say... two 10% water changes). Will that be enough, you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jolt Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 You might take a good sniff of each creature before you dump it in there. Not sure its soon enough for any death smell, but could be. You could also test for ammonia after they've been in the tank for a while to decide if you've changed enough water The princess buckets are priceless, and I won't even ask why you have so many ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timfish Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 +1 for doing the smell test, you won't have to get your nose too close to know either. Using a drop or 2 of ammonia blocker (like Prime or Ammodetox) per bucket like Sasha mentioned certainly can't hurt. At 5 days you've got me beat by 2 so I'm very intersted in what lives and what dies. And the lower temps may have saved some of them since it slowed down thier metabolism. That is the fanciest bucket setup I've seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murftoo Posted January 15, 2018 Author Share Posted January 15, 2018 Well, this has been interesting. After a 6 hour acclimation, the following survivors made it out of buckets and into round 2- surviving in the tank! 1/10 Scarlett Hermits 7/7 Ceriths 1/20 Trochus 13/20 Nassarius 28/40 Tiny blue legged hermits The Ceriths all buried themselves within seconds. The Nassarius, while technically exhibiting signs of life when I touch them, are all lying on their sides and look terrible.The tiny little hermits are either healthy enough to start snacking on the dying Nassarius or they are sickly and being ripped from shells by the cleaner shrimp. The Melenarius Wrasse is picking up the dying Nassarius (which are quite large) and the weak hermits and smashing them open on rocks to eat, which is equal parts horrifying and interesting. The radial filefish and tang (who are best buds with the wrasse and do everything he does) just started in on them too. Guess I don't have to worry about the impact of more deaths in my tank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sascha D. Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 It may sound cruel, but I would have counted the whole shipment as a loss after that amount of time. Some of them have died in shipment, but you will still have losses after acclimation due to ammonia burn. You should file a claim against UPS or get a refund from LA. Also, you can't keep hermits or Nassarius Snails with Halichloeress wrasses. These are some of my favorite fish and I've been keeping them a number of years. IME you can keep Cerith Snails and Turbo Snails for a time, but the wrasses will knock them off of the tank walls and they will die when they can't right themselves. You can probably keep pincushion urchins with them long term. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murftoo Posted January 15, 2018 Author Share Posted January 15, 2018 The wrasse has been a perfect gentleman to hermits and snails of all kinds before this episode. I try to keep him fat and happy. Maybe I tempted him with too much easy prey at one time? I just hope this doesn't become a habit because I'm quite attached to my hermits! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sascha D. Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 The wrasse has been a perfect gentleman to hermits and snails of all kinds before this episode. I try to keep him fat and happy. [emoji3] Maybe I tempted him with too much easy prey at one time? I just hope this doesn't become a habit because I'm quite attached to my hermits! Established fish often think that everything we put into the tank is food whether they are hungry or not. Snails and hermits are a part of that fishes natural diet. I would expect 100 snails to slowly disappear over 3-5 months.Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timfish Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 Update? I'm real curious what's still alive after such a stressful event. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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