Timfish Posted August 1, 2017 Share Posted August 1, 2017 6 hours ago, FarmerTy said: I'd say I disagree with adding phosphates if your primary goal is running an SPS-dominant tank. As long as you are feeding fish daily, you shouldn't have a lack of phosphate issue... You will most likely have remove phosphate from your system. Removing nitrates is as simple as water changes. Change 50% of your water, and your nitrate level will drop 50%. I keep a concentration of 5-10ppm of nitrates for best coloration in an SPS dominant tank. Unfortunately the colloquial term "SPS" has no validity as scientific term for describing corals and is worthless for determining the husbandry requirements of a coral. Looking at just the Acropora genus, we as aquarist are only able to keep a fraction of the species, ones which have a wide distribution indicating a very good degree of adaptability. A significant majority of the Acroporas have mutually exclusive environmental requirements. If the colloquial term "SPS" had any relevance what works for one acropora would work for every acropora. As to whether feeding fish provides enough nitrogen AND phosphate depends a great deal on the fish biomass, something not easily determined, and the amount of food fed each day. We also cannot test for the amount of organic phosphate in a system. Running a system with unnaturally low PO4 levels may work but it may be becasue there's enough organic phosphate in the system. And unfortunately coloration is not a good indicator of the health of a coral. A significant portion of a corals immune system depends on it's symbiotic zooxanthellae. While some of the techniques we aquarists have developed that promote what we consider "ideal" colors when these techniques infringe on a corals ability to grow and maintain healthy levels of symbiotic zooxanthellae that give a coral it's brown coloration we are in fact seriously impacting a corals immune system and it's ability to adapt and survive. (I wonder how "SPS" got a reputation as being "difficult". ) One of the surprises when I started questioning the assumptions about how to maintain reef systems based on my experiences was the distribution of PO4 in the ocean. WHile it was true some reefs have very low PO4, <.05, it was just a tiny, tiny fraction. Additionally, looking through Veron's "Corals of the Indo-Pacific and Australia", these reefs were just as likely to have so called "LPS" as "SPS". Quite a contradiction to what newbies are often told about "LPS" needing "dirty" water. To see PO4 levels in reality drop from ~.7 mg/l away from reefs to an average of .13 mg/l it's was obvious to me the reason PO4 is low in reefs is because corals are sucking it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FarmerTy Posted August 2, 2017 Share Posted August 2, 2017 1 hour ago, Timfish said: Unfortunately the colloquial term "SPS" has no validity as scientific term for describing corals and is worthless for determining the husbandry requirements of a coral. Looking at just the Acropora genus, we as aquarist are only able to keep a fraction of the species, ones which have a wide distribution indicating a very good degree of adaptability. A significant majority of the Acroporas have mutually exclusive environmental requirements. If the colloquial term "SPS" had any relevance what works for one acropora would work for every acropora. As to whether feeding fish provides enough nitrogen AND phosphate depends a great deal on the fish biomass, something not easily determined, and the amount of food fed each day. We also cannot test for the amount of organic phosphate in a system. Running a system with unnaturally low PO4 levels may work but it may be becasue there's enough organic phosphate in the system. And unfortunately coloration is not a good indicator of the health of a coral. A significant portion of a corals immune system depends on it's symbiotic zooxanthellae. While some of the techniques we aquarists have developed that promote what we consider "ideal" colors when these techniques infringe on a corals ability to grow and maintain healthy levels of symbiotic zooxanthellae that give a coral it's brown coloration we are in fact seriously impacting a corals immune system and it's ability to adapt and survive. (I wonder how "SPS" got a reputation as being "difficult". ) One of the surprises when I started questioning the assumptions about how to maintain reef systems based on my experiences was the distribution of PO4 in the ocean. WHile it was true some reefs have very low PO4, <.05, it was just a tiny, tiny fraction. Additionally, looking through Veron's "Corals of the Indo-Pacific and Australia", these reefs were just as likely to have so called "LPS" as "SPS". Quite a contradiction to what newbies are often told about "LPS" needing "dirty" water. To see PO4 levels in reality drop from ~.7 mg/l away from reefs to an average of .13 mg/l it's was obvious to me the reason PO4 is low in reefs is because corals are sucking it up. We go round and round Tim. Considering my background, I understand colloquial terms versus actual genus names. Rather than continue to fight it like you have Tim, its just easier for me to just go with the flow regarding common terms. Otherwise, its just an exercise in beating your head against in the wall in my opinion and it also saves me time when talking with other reefers. I'm not looking for a debate. I keep acros (Acropora)... They look very nice in my tank in my opinion. I'm trying to help another hobbyist who keeps acros as well go with advice I think is more appropriate to his situation. You often quote books about natural reefs and data collected from these reefs as backing for your assumptions in the reef aquaria, which in my opinion and just my opinion only, is not always as applicable to saltwater tanks. Both environments are very different in many ways that I don't really feel like we are emulating nature anymore. My 215-gallon tank is not the ocean, nor do I want it to look like the ocean. I want it to look like this, and to look like this, I keep my phosphates below 0.03 ppm according to my Hanna meter, whether that means there is a great amount of organic phosphate in the water in corrolation, I do not know. I don't mean to offend you Tim. Your expertise on this board is beneficial to many. I just been running "SPS"-dominant systems for 7 years now and learned a great deal over the years on how to keep beautifully colored acropora colonies, so I aim to share that same knowledge with others and if someone gives advice I see may not be beneficial, I will also add my opinion in hopes to help someone with their goal. I'm not aiming to slam down anybody else's advice in the process, contributions to the collective knowledge is what makes the hobby great, and what makes ARC great. There are always so many willing to help. I'll just agree to disagree on this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimD Posted August 2, 2017 Share Posted August 2, 2017 Thats the target, 5-10 ppm nitrate, not there yet, but getting there... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jolt Posted August 2, 2017 Share Posted August 2, 2017 Keep us posted Jim! I am very curious to see what ends up working for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FarmerTy Posted August 2, 2017 Share Posted August 2, 2017 11 hours ago, JimD said: Thats the target, 5-10 ppm nitrate, not there yet, but getting there... Great that you are making progress. Its much easier to lower nitrates then phosphates as you don't have to deal with nitrates binding to surfaces and leaching back into the water down the road like you would phosphates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimD Posted August 2, 2017 Share Posted August 2, 2017 Will do Jolt ! I hear ya Farmer Ty.... And thanks for all the help... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimD Posted August 5, 2017 Share Posted August 5, 2017 Nice tank Farmer,,, nice and clean.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FarmerTy Posted August 5, 2017 Share Posted August 5, 2017 1 hour ago, JimD said: Nice tank Farmer,,, nice and clean.... Thank you Jim. I'm working on version 2.0 right now at the new house. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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