Stocking levels, what is "full"

[AlexMorsePremium]

I've got a red sea reefer 450, which is a 5' long 92 gallon display, 24 gallon sump.  Bubble magus curve 5 skimmer, run gfo, carbon, and have a healthy amount of macro algae in the sump.  

My nitrates haven't read above 5ppm for months, phosphate is undetectable.  

Currently I have

4x Blue/Green Chromis
1 Banggai Cardinal
2 Percula Clowns
1 Foxface Lo
2 Bartlet's Anthias

I'm considering an addition or two, but wanted opinions on stock load.  Obviously bioload is in control based on my levels right now, but there's more to stocking than nutrient levels.

I'm considering a mandarin, and red headed solon fairy wrasse if I can find it.

I feel pretty solid on the mandarin OR some sort of blenny that hops rocks, likes caves as there's nothing to dispute with there.  I'm wondering if the potentially larger wrasse would be pushing it.

[Timfish]

Adding a goby shouldn't be a problem but my experience with dragonets your system probably isn't big enough for one.  (I would be looking at rehoming your foxface in the next year or two depending on growth.)  Addressing your basic question on what is "full", strictly speaking you system can hold more.  What is ethical I think is a better way to address stocking levels.  With heavier stocking levels you have much less of a safety margin WHEN equipment or power fails.   Social issues can be literally be a killer and the more fish you add the more likely you will run into that issue.   Almost all the fish we get are juveniles so what may be acceptable with a group of juveniles is almost certainly not going to be acceptable in 3, 4 or 5 years as they grow and mature.  But if you're also growing corals you do need fish to provide nitrogen (organic and inorganic) and PO4 to your corals.

[AlexMorsePremium]

Not big enough, due to pod producing capacity, or do they just really like to wander around?

Social issues are my main concern, and general fish happiness with their environment.

Definitely going to migrate the foxface to a longer tank if it he gets big or unhappy. 

[Timfish]

"Pod production, based on my experiences over hte years I'd say a 75-100 gal system with refugium has about a 50/50 chance of growing enough pods for a dragonet to keep it healthy for it's life expectancy.   People have certainly been successful with smaller systems so I'm not saying it can't be done but adding wrasses are going to compete and reduce chances of long term success.  'Pods are readily available now by mail so with a little effort and commitment they can be kept in systems that don't have good 'pod production.   

[AlexMorsePremium]

Ok, cool, I'm on the same page then.  I've got a pretty healthy population but it's a good point that I shouldn't add two competing in that food-space if it's at all in question.

 

 

 

 

[Sascha D.]

15 hours ago, AlexMorse said:

I've got a red sea reefer 450, which is a 5' long 92 gallon display, 24 gallon sump.  Bubble magus curve 5 skimmer, run gfo, carbon, and have a healthy amount of macro algae in the sump.  

My nitrates haven't read above 5ppm for months, phosphate is undetectable.  

Currently I have

4x Blue/Green Chromis
1 Banggai Cardinal
2 Percula Clowns
1 Foxface Lo
2 Bartlet's Anthias

I'm considering an addition or two, but wanted opinions on stock load.  Obviously bioload is in control based on my levels right now, but there's more to stocking than nutrient levels.

I'm considering a mandarin, and red headed solon fairy wrasse if I can find it.

I feel pretty solid on the mandarin OR some sort of blenny that hops rocks, likes caves as there's nothing to dispute with there.  I'm wondering if the potentially larger wrasse would be pushing it.

You're running GFO, AC, Skimming and a refugium for export. Based on that filtration I think you could stock some more fish. By large wrasses, I'm assuming you mean 4-5" and peaceful. That group of wrasses can basically be broken down into those that will eat invertebrates and those that will not. If you want to add hermit crabs and small snails, then I would stick to fairy and flasher wrasses. Scott's Fairy Wrasse and Exquisite Fairy Wrasse get up to 5", but the rest will be in the 2-4" range. All of the fairy wrasses would be safe to add with your current stocking list. The Red Head Solomon Wrasse is common and you should be able to find one in a store at almost any time. Last weekend RCA had two for a good price. You could also add some flasher wrasses, which stay around the 3" range and docile. Wrasses in the Halichoeres family reach 4-5", are peaceful, but may eat snails, hermits, and fan worms. I wouldn't add any wrasse species that exceed 5". I would avoid any wrasse in the Coris sp. or any wrasses with "lined" in the name. 

I agree with Timfish. Every fish in your current stock except the Foxface Lo will eat pods and the anthias feed on pods as their main diet. Adding wrasses will further diminish your pod population and add a lot of competition for the Mandarin Dragonet. It costs a fortune to feed a dragonet because the pods that are available commercially will not breed in our aquariums long-term. I would avoid this fish unless you're willing to convert them to roe. A Leopard Wrasse would make a great alternative and would also eat prepared foods. They come in a variety of colors and will live peacefully with your current stock and other peaceful wrasses. 

[Sascha D.]

IMO that amount of filtration is higher than you need for your current bioload. If your macroalgae is lightening in color or becoming translucent, then the nutrients are too low to support it. 

[AlexMorsePremium]

Oh interesting, I haven't caught my anthias picking at pods yet. Their favourite so far is spirulina and brine, but they like mysis as well... haven't seen them go after any of the meatier stuff I feed.   Everyone is eating prepped foods though, and about half also nibble on nori.  

I'd go for a dwarf angel, but I know that's a roll of dice as far as polyp nibbling.

I'll have to make the trek up to RCA this weekend and browse some!

[Sascha D.]

3 hours ago, AlexMorse said:

Oh interesting, I haven't caught my anthias picking at pods yet. Their favourite so far is spirulina and brine, but they like mysis as well... haven't seen them go after any of the meatier stuff I feed.   Everyone is eating prepped foods though, and about half also nibble on nori.  

I'd go for a dwarf angel, but I know that's a roll of dice as far as polyp nibbling.

I'll have to make the trek up to RCA this weekend and browse some!

Anthias are primarily planktivores, some species more so than others. The pictures that got me into the hobby were large schools of anthias hovering above the reef picking off floating critters. I had a group of lyretails that wouldn't eat anything except mysis, but I don't have any experience with Bartlet's. Every credible reference will say not to introduce a Mandarin Dragonet into tanks less than one year old because we want an established population of breeding copepods beforehand. I remember reading somewhere that a dragonet will pick around 100-200 copepods a day from the rocks or sand. I'm not sure how accurate that is, and the pods are tiny, but I don't think it's far from the truth. 

[+BobcatReefer]

I have a Ruby Red Dragonet in my 75g and he couldn't be happier/fatter.  Granted, I don't have another fish competing for pods, and he eats everything I put in the tank - mysis, bloodworms, cyclopeeze.  I also had my tank running fallow for 2.5mon, so the pods had plenty of time to live and procreate w/o predators.  I also dump a packet of pods in every couple of months just because.

[Isaac]

So the basic question has been on my mind all day... 1" of livestock (fish, coral, inverts, anything living) per 1gal actual system water.   I've been trying to disprove myself all day, but I cant.  There are special situations where the 1" is too small (aggressive fish, or fish that need more space.. just add an inch or two.  Also, you should calculate on known max size of your livestock, not current). coraline counts too! (i kinda add it all up and divide by 2).  This also assumes the old addage lbs liverock/sand to working gals.

I know I know, too "engineer-ish,"  but think about it... 230 system gals.  add up all your coral (yes, gsp counts), then add up your fish, shrimp, snails, crabs.  

In "skimmer land" : 115"(50%) to 188"(75%),this is a "light load."  188"(75%) -  230"(100%) this is average, 230"(100%) - 375"(150%) this is average-high range, 375"+(150%) heavy load. 

this also allows large tolerances for the hidden crap you cant count!

Using this logic, I'm going to assume your tank is 100 working gals (above looks like you gave capacity gals, and "100" is just easier to illustrate)

guesstimating sizes here:

4x Blue/Green Chromis - 10"
1 Banggai Cardinal -3"
2 Percula Clowns -4"
1 Foxface Lo -3"
2 Bartlet's Anthias -8"

so, thats 28" (or 28% stocked).  if you are FOWLR w/ no coraline, no corals, no snails/crabs/shrimp...  You got room

[Isaac]

11 minutes ago, Isaac said:

1" of livestock (fish, coral, inverts, anything living) per 1gal actual system water.

if im crazy (in reference to this) or semi-spot on, please tell me, I'd love feedback. 

[Sascha D.]

18 minutes ago, Isaac said:

So the basic question has been on my mind all day... 1" of livestock (fish, coral, inverts, anything living) per 1gal actual system water.   I've been trying to disprove myself all day, but I cant.  There are special situations where the 1" is too small (aggressive fish, or fish that need more space.. just add an inch or two). coraline counts too! (i kinda add it all up and divide by 2).  This also assumes the old addage lbs liverock/sand to working gals.

I know I know, too "engineer-ish,"  but think about it... 230 system gals.  add up all your coral (yes, gsp counts), then add up your fish, shrimp, snails, crabs.  

In "skimmer land" : 115"(50%) to 188"(75%),this is a "light load."  188"(75%) -  230"(100%) this is average, 230"(100%) - 375"(150%) this is average-high range, 375"+(150%) heavy load. 

this also allows large tolerances for the hidden crap you cant count!

Using this logic, I'm going to assume your tank is 100 working gals (above looks like you gave capacity gals, and "100" is just easier to illustrate)

guesstimating sizes here:

4x Blue/Green Chromis - 10"
1 Banggai Cardinal -3"
2 Percula Clowns -4"
1 Foxface Lo -3"
2 Bartlet's Anthias -8"

so, thats 28" (or 28% stocked).  if you are FOWLR w/ no coraline, no corals, no snails/crabs/shrimp...  You got room

I believe 1" of fish per gallon guideline was meant to represent "normal" stocking levels without being "overstocked". I think you should consider the maximum size of the fish and not the current size. Hopefully, the plan is to keep the fish throughout it's life. Build the doghouse for the dog and not the puppy. 

 

29 minutes ago, BobcatReefer said:

I have a Ruby Red Dragonet in my 75g and he couldn't be happier/fatter.  Granted, I don't have another fish competing for pods, and he eats everything I put in the tank - mysis, bloodworms, cyclopeeze.  I also had my tank running fallow for 2.5mon, so the pods had plenty of time to live and procreate w/o predators.  I also dump a packet of pods in every couple of months just because.

Ruby Red Dragonets, Finger Dragonets and Scooter Dragonets may be alternatives. Mandarin Dragonets are largely considered the most challenging to convert to prepared foods as they normally only feed on natural prey. Scott W. Michael indicates the ruby, finger, and scooter may accept other foods but may need specialized feeding if housed with aggressive eaters.  

[Isaac]

Just now, Sascha D. said:

I believe 1" of fish per gallon guideline was meant to represent "normal" stocking levels without being "overstocked". I think you should consider the maximum size of the fish and not the current size. Hopefully, the plan is to keep the fish throughout it's life. Build the doghouse for the dog and not the puppy. 

excellent point... will update

[AlexMorsePremium]

1 hour ago, Isaac said:

So the basic question has been on my mind all day... 1" of livestock (fish, coral, inverts, anything living) per 1gal actual system water.   I've been trying to disprove myself all day, but I cant.  There are special situations where the 1" is too small (aggressive fish, or fish that need more space.. just add an inch or two.  Also, you should calculate on known max size of your livestock, not current). coraline counts too! (i kinda add it all up and divide by 2).  This also assumes the old addage lbs liverock/sand to working gals.

I know I know, too "engineer-ish,"  but think about it... 230 system gals.  add up all your coral (yes, gsp counts), then add up your fish, shrimp, snails, crabs.  

In "skimmer land" : 115"(50%) to 188"(75%),this is a "light load."  188"(75%) -  230"(100%) this is average, 230"(100%) - 375"(150%) this is average-high range, 375"+(150%) heavy load. 

this also allows large tolerances for the hidden crap you cant count!

Using this logic, I'm going to assume your tank is 100 working gals (above looks like you gave capacity gals, and "100" is just easier to illustrate)

guesstimating sizes here:

4x Blue/Green Chromis - 10"
1 Banggai Cardinal -3"
2 Percula Clowns -4"
1 Foxface Lo -3"
2 Bartlet's Anthias -8"

so, thats 28" (or 28% stocked).  if you are FOWLR w/ no coraline, no corals, no snails/crabs/shrimp...  You got room

I'm a software engineer (actually CTO nowadays) so I dig.

I knew I had room due to nutrient levels, but this is a good thing to look at.  I do have corals, snails, crabs, shrimp.  I'm not sure how to count them.

[Isaac]

1 minute ago, AlexMorse said:

I'm a software engineer (actually CTO nowadays) so I dig.

I knew I had room due to nutrient levels, but this is a good thing to look at.  I do have corals, snails, crabs, shrimp.  I'm not sure how to count them.

squareinch of the surface area usually works...  so softball sized torch... ~12 is the low end.. this doesnt really factor each and every "arm".. but we are just guesstimating here.

[Sascha D.]

Is it quantifiable? I've been thinking and I'm not sure that I could put a number on a coral. For the sake of brevity, let's use your torch example. How much waste will that coral produce during normal photosynthesis? Does it count for anything? Would it be as much as a 3" clown fish? I don't know how much stress the corals really put on the bioload.

[Isaac]

a lot when it slimes up.  using your same example.. maybe your clown poops like a 5" one

[Timfish]

I really hate it when I see any recommendation based on length of fish.  This has only a very loose correlation to the total weight or biomass of a fish and there's no allowance for overall size of fish.  For example a 6" foxface is considerably more biomass than four 3" chromis.    Another problem, and this is demonstrated with some of the above discussion, is adult sizes are not always taken into consideration.