Vodka Dosing

[+TxSkyGuy]

Looking for thoughts on vodka dosing, who does it, risk/reward, indications contraindications etc.

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[ceastman]

I dose vodka, for about 6 months now.

Risk - overdosing can cause a bacterial bloom. I dosed a bit much and might have caused my cleaner shrimp to die. I also noticed that some of my fish started to show signs of ich. So I reduced the dosing amount and the fish returned to normal.

Reward - got rid of nuisance algae and dino.

[Neon Reefer]

Vodka dosing has never been shown to defeat dinos. But the opposite is mostly true. Dinos are known to appear with the concentration of carbon in the aquarium.

[FarmerTy]

I don't know about never as that's a strong statement to make but lowering nutrient levels in a tank can definitely help with dinos.

I agree that there is a strong correlation anecdotally between cyano/dinos and carbon dosing but nothing officially proven.

[Reburn]

Imho

You should do a bunch of reading on vodka dosing there are pages and pages of info on r2r and RC. More then can be discussed here effectively.

It is a great way to crash your tank without a firm understanding of dosages etc.

[tennisjad3]

I regularly dose myself with vodka. I;d say the risk/reward generally turns out to be worth it

[Isaac]

http://www.reefaquarium.com/2012/carbon-dosing-in-laymans-terms/

http://melevsreef.com/node/184

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-08/nftt/

I actually like the last one the best, followed the chart. I dose diluted everclear w/ a medical PCA pump. I think im down to 4ml/week of everclear. Been at 4ml/week for 5mo. tried lowering it a couple times, but nitrates went back up.

point is, slow and steady is the way to go, be patient.

[+TxSkyGuy]

http://www.reefaquarium.com/2012/carbon-dosing-in-laymans-terms/

http://melevsreef.com/node/184

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-08/nftt/

I actually like the last one the best, followed the chart. I dose diluted everclear w/ a medical PCA pump. I think im down to 4ml/week of everclear. Been at 4ml/week for 5mo. tried lowering it a couple times, but nitrates went back up.

point is, slow and steady is the way to go, be patient.

That last link is actually the one I was looking at starting

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[Isaac]

its seems harder than it looks. worst part is the patience and tracking. I ended up printing the chart, puting dates besise each dose, crossing it out as i dosed.... then i got the PCA involved one it was stabilized. Just watch for the warning signs, test water... a lot. Like go buy a backup test kit, then replace it when it becomes your primary. *lol*

[Sascha D.]

Honestly, I think that there are two reasons that people look into vodka dosing; to achieve an Ultra Low Nutrient System or to cure/prevent a problem. Some people have very nice tanks using the ULNS or Zeovit system. They normally have a low population of fish and it looks like a lot of work. It's not for me on both counts .

When I first got into the hobby people were stacking hundreds of pounds of rock in their tanks. In the last five years or so I've noticed people using less rocks and more alternative sources of filtration. Whether that be rock in the sump, refugiums, reactors, dosing or increased mechanical filtration. Along those same lines, I've been seeing more people dosing a low amount of carbon in lieu of large skimmers, reactors or live rock. I may try it if my fish population gets too high for my skimmer.

Here's an article that I bookmarked on carbon dosing.

[FarmerTy]

I run such an overstocked fish load that biopellets (another form of carbon dosing like vodka) are my savior to keep nitrates low. FWIW, I don't run an ULNS, I try to actually encourage some algal growth for my tangs and angels to feed on. Just for the original poster, you can't run vodka, or any type of carbon dosing, without a good skimmer. It is essential as it removes the bacteria growth that is initiated from the carbon dosing.

Sascha, if you aren't into the amount of work zeovit systems require, then vodka isn't going to be your thing either. It's daily dosing and too much work in my opinion as well. I would look into biopellets if your fish population ever gets too high and your nitrates start soaring. Simple, little maintenance, and efficient form of carbon dosing. The big drawback is having to buy a reactor and you can't tune it as well as you can a daily carbon dose addition like vodka.

[Neon Reefer]

Talking with Jake at RCA, he concurs with my opinion that many people are going back to 2 part dosing and leaving the Ca RX even in high demand tanks for the more simple process. Finding a base line with Kalk dosing in the ATO is a fairly simple process as long as your top off is fairly constant, and sufficient to introduce enough Kalk to the system. Dosing some amount of vinegar thru the kalk is another way to achieve two things. One is to get higher amounts of Ca and Alk out of the kalk which is important in high demand systems. Then it is a matter of balancing the foundation elements with a simple two part dosing system which can be used to supplement the kalk as well if demand is very high. The second benefit is the introduction of small amounts of carbon into the system. The amount of carbon is far less than vodka dosing, ~ 12 % carbon per ml with 5% vinegar as compared to vodka at 40% alcohol.

The time and costs to set up this system is minimal as well as the time to manage it on a daily or usually weekly basis. We usually monitor our pH pretty closely anyway and this is the biggest concern with kalk /. vinegar dosing. Dosing to the sump where the tank water drains with a sufficient amount of rock in this area will encourage the bacteria to grow here instead of the tank. Skimming in this area or downstream depending on the tank set up usually is sufficient to control the bacteria blooms.

[FarmerTy]

I find that hard to believe that many large, SPS dominant tanks are switching back to 2-part as the ones that I keep up with and look up to nationwide mainly run CaRXs. I know Jake is not a fan of running a CaRX because he honestly has only tried to run it once in the display tank at the store and it didn't work out so they never tried again. I've offered to even help them with the setup of one on their system but I think its like most folks, they think they are more difficult to run than it really is.

At the end of the day, I find it a little overreaching to conclude that many are leaving CaRXs for 2-part. Everybody I know personally in town have not ditched their CaRXs for 2-part... In fact, many are going the other way. I'm not in either camp as they both perform the same function but I just don't like making broadbased conclusions like that on little data or a couple people's opinions and passing it off as fact.

I'm honestly not a fan of dosing carbon via kalk because now you have two variables tied to your amount of evaporation, which is inherently variable in itself. While fine for those that don't need to or don't care to fine tune their addition of alk and carbon, for me, that would cause me fits.

I agree on the skimming downstream should be a viable option and with the kalk/vinegar setup, it'll allow you to direct most of the bacterial growth to the sump where it can be more efficiently skimmed out whereas, dosing in the DT with vodka may increase the bacterial population in your DT and less make it to your sump where the skimmer is to be skimmed out and removed from the system.

[Sascha D.]

Sascha, if you aren't into the amount of work zeovit systems require, then vodka isn't going to be your thing either. It's daily dosing and too much work in my opinion as well. I would look into biopellets if your fish population ever gets too high and your nitrates start soaring. Simple, little maintenance, and efficient form of carbon dosing. The big drawback is having to buy a reactor and you can't tune it as well as you can a daily carbon dose addition like vodka.

What I meant by this is dosing a fixed amount of carbon to increase the bio capacity of the aquarium. I suppose you could think of it as a biopellets without the reactor. I'm sure there are inherent risks and I haven't researched it in depth. Actively dosing isn't for me and I choose to passively dose by way of reactor. I've been running an Aquamaxx Omega-2, with a small culture, for about two months.

[Isaac]

The kalk+vinegar combo was mostly to equalize the ph of the solution being added to the tank (just a tiny side effect of carbon dosing), it was never meant as a carbon source. if you are kalk+vinegar-ing as a carbon source, your vinegar ratio is too high, which means you are dosing less kalk anyways (which makes the kalk properties the tiny side effect). It is not an apples to apples comparison on vodka dosing or CARX. A proper balance of kalk+vinegar is a good 2-part method, I wont argue that (thats my backup... i always have backups!).

[FarmerTy]

I don't know 100% myself but I would imagine that dosing carbon in any way and allowing the bacteria to reside in the system is only creating a sink for nutrients. Sure, they will get uptaken but if the bacteria itself is never actually exported via a skimmer or another process, then when the bacteria dies, it will release the nutrients back into the water column. Best analogy I can think of is growing chaeto but never trimming and removing it from the system. If you just continue to leave it in there and it eventually gets choked out and starts dying, it will release all the uptaken nutrients back into the system. So, it's only function was just a temporary sink for nutrients.

How do you like your Aquamaxx reactor? Looks pretty cool and definitely a departure from the standard reactors.

[FarmerTy]

The kalk+vinegar combo was mostly to equalize the ph of the solution being added to the tank (just a tiny side effect of carbon dosing), it was never meant as a carbon source. if you are kalk+vinegar-ing as a carbon source, your vinegar ratio is too high, which means you are dosing less kalk anyways (which makes the kalk properties the tiny side effect). It is not an apples to apples comparison on vodka dosing or CARX. A proper balance of kalk+vinegar is a good 2-part method, I wont argue that (thats my backup... i always have backups!).

Nice summary!

[Sascha D.]

I don't know 100% myself but I would imagine that dosing carbon in any way and allowing the bacteria to reside in the system is only creating a sink for nutrients. Sure, they will get uptaken but if the bacteria itself is never actually exported via a skimmer or another process, then when the bacteria dies, it will release the nutrients back into the water column. Best analogy I can think of is growing chaeto but never trimming and removing it from the system. If you just continue to leave it in there and it eventually gets choked out and starts dying, it will release all the uptaken nutrients back into the system. So, it's only function was just a temporary sink for nutrients.

How do you like your Aquamaxx reactor? Looks pretty cool and definitely a departure from the standard reactors.

That would be true if you dosed the DT and didn't have a skimmer. I think there's a miscommunication going on and so I won't pursue it further.

The Aquamaxx Omega-2 Reactor is working well for me so far. The reactor was on sale when I bought it, so the price was lower than competing reactors. The pump is completely silent and the pellets haven't clogged. In fact I've never seen media spin so fast! I started it while the tank was cycling and I could see a reduction in algae by the second week. The bioload is too low to give any real feedback, but it looks promising.

[FarmerTy]

My wife tells me is because my mouth is always talking and that gives very little opportunity to actually listen... so I have no doubt I probably misunderstood something.

Nice, throw up a video when you get a chance. I want to see those biopellets running for their lives in that reactor!

[Neon Reefer]

I find that hard to believe that many large, SPS dominant tanks are switching back to 2-part as the ones that I keep up with and look up to nationwide mainly run CaRXs.

Ty I think you qualified your statement to a fairly narrow range of tanks "large, SPS dominant tanks".

Many who run this specific type tank are more prone IMHO to want higher tech components than those who do not. But the majority of tanks do not fall into this category. And although for those who feel that low pH CO2 injection with electronic regulators and Milwaukee pH probes, solenoid, regulators, and effluent lines are simple plug and play and a snap to dial in...well... more power to you.

I follow several other forums IE Michigan Reefers, Reef2Reef, The Reef Tank, Reef Sanctuary, and RC as well as ARC when I want information on a new or unfamiliar subject. The consensus I get from looking into CA RX usage from this array of forums is there are two distinct camps. Those who are successful with the CA RX set up are hard core pro and those who have been unsuccessful are against and it seems to be a 50 / 50 split. However for the most part newer reefers are going to 2 part programmable dosing pumps and those beyond the need for these simple units are starting kalk dosing, more thru the use of a kalk reactor than thru ATO. I guess I am old school on the ATO kalk reactor with vinegar. SO its not so much that many are leaving CaRXs for 2-part rather not as many new start up CA RX. It seems there use has peaked.

As far as dosing kalk ATO versus RX most new set ups will use the RX. I like the KISS method of the ATO, which works quite well if done correctly. My ATO system has a pH override managed by my reef monitor which prohibits the ATO from over dosing Kalk. as well as a float system with a high level switch. Redundancy is the key from preventing an Alk crash. And true you do have to manage evaporation and keep it as a constant. Not too hard to do with a closed tank where my evap all comes from the sump where I can control air flow via a fan. I'd sum it up ith this R2R statement from a couple of years ago which IMO still holds true.

These statements should be completed by "Your mileage may vary."

I'm not denying the experience either of you are claiming, but (unfortunately) that's far from the typical CO2 reactor-user's experience. Try Googling: "calcium reactor" crash

From my own and aggregated experiences from others I'd have a tough time recommending a calcium reactor to anyone, unless kalk and DIY two-part ingredients were just not available for some reason. That is to say low cost is the main reason to run a reactor (IMO) and when I just purchased a 5-gallon bucket of Calcium Chloride for $20 and Arm & Hammer for less than $1/lb, that main reason just gets a lot smaller. Dosing pumps aren't without their setup complexities, but they're much easier to set up and to use than a CO2 reactor-based system.

Another thing is that from Rev's post, it appears un-clear what a kalk reactor is, but somehow we all know what kind of calcium reactor we're thinking about - a CO2 reactor.

A kalk reactor can be set up just like a Calcium reactor and controlled by pH - even with CO2 injection. The same kalk reactor could instead be controlled and fed by an automatic top-off switch. (Not sure there's anyone left doing this. Calcium reactor media is so much easier to manage.)

To me, the key difference between calcium and kalk is that kalk does not require the use of an expensive CO2 reactor to be deployed. Something as dead-simple as Tunze's 5074 dispenser is really all you need. If you dose vinegar with your kalk, you can even simulate the effect that CO2 has in a CO2 reactor and get a higher dose of kalk.

-Matt

It really is not just a broad-based conclusion based on little data or a couple people's opinions.

[FarmerTy]

Maybe you said it right with the first statement, I've narrowed it down to large tanks keeping SPS dominant systems, as those are the only ones I follow.

For your purposes, kalk with vinegar should hold you over I'm sure for the life of your tank and would complement 80% of the tanks out there as well. I definitely don't disagree with that. From a standpoint of maintenance, not cost or learning curve, CaRX wins for me hands down, but that's just my opinion as I've run kalk, 2-part with dosers, and multiple CaRXs over the years. To them peaking, I'm sure the manufacturers that are still coming out with new types of CaRX annually, I doubt they are building them for fun and people aren't buying them. At the end of the day, neither of us can quantify that so no point in proving the unprovable.

How is any of this related to vodka dosing? I don't know but somehow we steered the topic off from the original post so I'll leave it be there. I'm not looking for a debate on the function, utility, and adoption rate of methods to supplement foundation elements. There is no debate, they are all functional in their own rights and a better fit for certain systems/reefers than others. It doesn't matter to me that 90% use CaRX, or 5% use them. I have no stock in the game. The only issue I had was the painting of a picture of CaRXs being a technology that people aren't employing anymore or trying to employ. I see new threads all the time with people wanting advice on how to run their new CaRX. I chime in when I have the time to help.

[victoly]