FarmerTy Posted October 10, 2014 Author Share Posted October 10, 2014 I don't know anyone that has done it directly but I've been perusing many build threads on some bigger forums. I prefer to catch my flies with chopsticks! I already made Richard take pictures of his hinges so if I go around poking in his tank, looking at his vent fan, he may ban me from the place. Sent via Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gig 'em @ NDstructible Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 Have you considered a continuous vent to keep humidity and heat pumped out of the tank? It's a bit inefficient, but at least you're assured that heat and moisture would be exported out of the house. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FarmerTy Posted October 13, 2014 Author Share Posted October 13, 2014 So here's what I decided on. Gig'em, I was actually leaning towards your idea of a continuous vent to reduce humidity in the canopy. However, I had to think of it from a HVAC standpoint. If I am constantly venting at a standard CFM of 50-80, the resulting vacuum from the displaced air will keep pulling in air from outside (not just outside of the canopy but outside of the house). Depending how much turnover that is, it may impact my HVAC negatively as I'll basically be blowing out humid, hot air from the canopy and sucking in a ton of hot outside air (summer) and cold outside air (winter) to replace it. I think in this scenario, it would eliminate my humidity issue and direct heat in the canopy issue and replace it with pulling outside air (hot or cold) and causing my HVAC to run more than usual, either way using a lot of electricity to offset my canopy heat/humidity issues. What I did come across was this particular model of Panasonic Vent fan. It allows me to continuous vent at a much lower CFM than standard fans (30cfm) and then has a switch activated relay that when activated, will jump up to a higher CFM (options of 50, 80, 110 CFM). I think if I can get it hooked up either with a simple timer or to my APEX for it to be activated to the higher mode when my lights come on, and the rest of the time in continuous run mode (30CFM), I would have a workable solution. I think that will achieve what I want with the canopy: 1) vent just enough air, but not too much, to always keep humidity levels low 2) vent a lot of air when the 3x 400-watt MH are on to keep temperature levels low 3) not vent too much air overall so I'm not pulling in a ton of outside air and have my HVAC running more than usual Unfortunately, I won't really know if I have the correct answer until I actually give it a try so I'm going to go ahead and order the fan. The issue is, I'm not an electrical wiring genius... so maybe someone on here can help me troubleshoot. Here is the fan I'm ordering: http://www.rewci.com/whisper-green-select-fv-05-11vks1.html Video for installation: I was thinking of wiring it directly through a junction box I have in the attic that's near that area to power the fan. That would allow the continuous vent option to always be on. I would just hook up the normal black to black, white to white, and ground to ground. It looks like the two red wires on the fan's junction box are non-powered and just basically activate a switch. Basically, if they are connected together, it completes the loop and the fan runs on the high mode. If possible, I want to use the APEX, perhaps via the breakout box, VDM port, or separate powered relay switch, to actively relay the switch to open/closed status that's dependent on the temperature of the tank (APEX temp probe). For instance, of the temp in tank is over 81 degrees, the APEX will "connect the loop" by connecting the two red wires (via powered switch relay or some sort) and the fan will go into "high mode" to vent at a higher CFM of 80 (or 110 CFM, whichever I select). Once the temp drops below 81 degrees, the APEX will "disconnect the loop" and the fan will go back into continuous mode of 30 CFM. Any of you electrical gurus out there have an idea if that's possible or even what type of powered relay switch I could use with the APEX to connect the loop? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Mlaw Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 Why aren't you venting it outside? That's my plan. Up into the attic then out through a soffit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
victoly Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 I think he is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FarmerTy Posted October 13, 2014 Author Share Posted October 13, 2014 Sorry if I wasn't clear but the goal is to vent outside. Sent via Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FarmerTy Posted October 15, 2014 Author Share Posted October 15, 2014 Bump for input from some electrical geniuses. Sent via Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
victoly Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 So the breakout box is out as an option, it just recieves open/close switches, it can't open/close them. Still thinking on how to get the 0-10v signal to close a switch. surely someone can figure this out... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jolt Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 I would maybe look at something like this: http://www.phidgets.com/docs/Solid_State_Relay_Primer http://www.amazon.com/Opto-22-Control-Optical-Isolation/dp/B0058UX04U I should add you need to pay attention to the kind of device you are hooking up on the load side. The link above is a zero-crossing module. Here is a random-crossing module: http://www.onlinecomponents.com/crydom-cl240d10rc.html?p=45157876 The first link explains when to use each kind of relay ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FarmerTy Posted October 15, 2014 Author Share Posted October 15, 2014 Thanks for the link Jim! I looked into SSRs I think they may be more than I need but I was still thinking of it as an option. Here's my problem I'm trying to solve in a summarized viewpoint: 0-10v variable dimmer signal coming out of VDM port of Apex --->to some sort of relay that when powered by 0-10v signal from Apex, will connect the two red wires from the vent fan. When the power is shutoff from the Apex, then the two red wires will be disconnected again. Sent via Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FarmerTy Posted October 15, 2014 Author Share Posted October 15, 2014 Do you think the SSR will accept the signal from the Apex and connect the two red wires, and then when unpowered, will disconnect them? Sent via Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jolt Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 Right, that is what's called a normally-open relay. When you apply greater than 3V DC to the switch side it turns on the 110VAC load switch allowing the 110 to flow. When you drop the DC signal below 3V the 110AC switch opens and no current flows in that circuit. I've not used APEX or SSR, but reading the data sheets makes me think it will work. Perhaps there is a person with more hands-on experience who will comment ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FarmerTy Posted October 15, 2014 Author Share Posted October 15, 2014 From what you describe Jim, it seems like a workable solution except I wouldn't need it to pass along any load of 110 AC, it would basically need to connect the wires, but it's nice to know if there is a load on it, it can handle that much. Thanks for your thoughts and feedback! Just curious, is this overkill for what I am trying to achieve? Is there a lower tech option I haven't explored yet? Or one that is simpler that doesn't need to be rated for 110 AC? I know there are mechanical solenoid switches for water or air in tubing applications , I was just curious if anybody knew of an equivalent for wires too? I could be just making up a product that doesn't exist but just wanted to ask. Sent via Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jolt Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 I can't really speculate on that unless I know what voltage and current are flowing on the red wires. Do you know the answer to that? I had assumed it was 110AC, but if the red wires themselves go to an internal relay on the fan then a different solution might be available. The 110AC is just the rating of voltage that the relay can handle. Anything less than that is not a problem for that relay. At $35 I wonder if you can really find a more robust solution? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FarmerTy Posted October 15, 2014 Author Share Posted October 15, 2014 Here's a wiring diagram I got from their website. Ignore that they can't spell plug in the diagram. I guess I'm trying to be CheaperTy and see if there was a solution that was more simple since my application doesn't require it to be rated for a 110AC when the red wires in the fan itself is non-powered. For $35, I guess it is a pretty elegant solution to a somewhat complex problem. Sent via Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jolt Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 Jeeper all wires can have current flowing in that circuit diagram. That's what makes circuits work (electricity) The high/low switch connecting the two red wires will enable the current to flow through the wires when it is closed, or disallow current to flow when it is open. I read that diagram as saying the red wire is tied to your 110AC supply neutral. Closing the switch would allow current to flow from the black wire (110 AC supply hot) to the white wire via the red wire. That indicates 110AC to me Are there other interpretations folks?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FarmerTy Posted October 15, 2014 Author Share Posted October 15, 2014 You got me! I'm a self proclaimed dummy when it comes to electrical work. I just know that they said it on the video as the red wires being non-powered lines and it also states that in the diagram. But from your diagnosis of it, it would seem like it would carry a current of 110 AC. Sent via Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jolt Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 Do you have a link to the video? Never mind I see it above Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jolt Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 OK, I watched the video. They are using some loose terminology there. When they say power they mean 120VAC. They don't really mean there is absolutely *no* power on those wires, its just a control signal not supply power for the fan. So the red wires do not carry 120VAC. They must carry a small current at some (probably DC) voltage supplied by the internal components in the fan. The switch makes or breaks the circuit and the fan's internal components see that and deal with setting the fan speed. So, you definitely don't need a relay that's rated for 120VAC. But I still think you need some form of relay to do this job and an SSR will likely be more reliable in a marine environment. This page lists several alternatives. I would think you'd want to put a meter on the two red wires and see exactly what voltage and current it had so you pick the right relay. http://www.jameco.com/1/1/730-kf0604d-dc-dc-solid-state-relay-control-voltage-3-32vdc.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FarmerTy Posted October 15, 2014 Author Share Posted October 15, 2014 You're awesome Jim! I take back all the things I've said about engineers! :-p I have already ordered the fan so I'll give it a test run once it arrives and see what current is running on the red wires. Thank you for your time sir. Please feel free to swing by my makeshift frag setup at the frag swap and help yourself to any one frag I have for your help! Sent via Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jolt Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 No problem. If you need help measuring the red wires just let me know ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FarmerTy Posted October 15, 2014 Author Share Posted October 15, 2014 Will do sir! Thanks again! Sent via Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Mlaw Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 I was just planning on setting mine on timer (apex) much like you do for auto fill. Have you detected an issue with this idea or are you just trying to figure out a way to cram more tech into your tank? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FarmerTy Posted October 22, 2014 Author Share Posted October 22, 2014 There's always room for more tech! I currently run my clip-on fans based on temperature in the tank. I thought about doing the same once I install the vent fan and enclose the entire tank. For me, the issue was the added element of humidity building up now that the tank was enclosed. I decided to purchase a Panasonic vent fan rated for continuous use at a lower CFM with a triggered option to jump up to a higher CFM. For me in theory, having that run continously will alleviate any humidity issues I may encounter in the enclosed tank area. The option to ramp it up will be triggered by a VDM port on the Apex hooked up to the relay Jim helped me pick out. This will allow me to trigger it to the higher CFM and have my Apex trigger it based on my tank's temperature. I was afraid with just a time based or only a temp based trigger, that my humidity level would be ignored and may cause problems down the line in regards to electrical equipment failure, mold, rusting of the stand, or rotting of the wood for the canopy and sides. Sent via Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
victoly Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 I think we're putting the horse before the cart here. You're going through a non-trivial excessive in electrical engineering to solve a problem that may not exist! You should collect data that confirms or denies the need to have multiple modes or even parameter based activation at all. Get one of these: humidity logger Return it when you're done. Worst case you're out return shipping. Experiment 1) One day of no fan use and ambient humidity in a part of your house not affected by tank evap (closet?) Experiment 2) Measure how long it takes to pull your canopy humidity to ambient with fan on Experiment 3) Measure how long it takes to increase humidity after fan cessation Experiment 4) Repeat experiment 2 with "high mode" Experiment 5) temp based activation experimentation, i.e., when your tank temp reaches X (lets say 79) your fan kicks on from off, and if it gets to say 80 it kicks up to high mode. Of course log all that. My hypothesis is that it's not going to take long at all to vent your humidity. You could vary it to turn on more when your lights or on (and presumably temp/humidity is a bit higher necessitating your evap fan) and then fewer times during off hours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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