+etannert Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 http://austin.culturemap.com/news/life/08-20-13-owners-of-new-austin-aquarium-linked-to-200-plus-animal-deaths-in-portland/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Planeden Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 According to another article, the aquarium claims that 200 includes snails and feeder fish. I guess this one is not going to be clear until the investigation. http://www.katu.com/news/local/Portland-Aquarium-being-investigated-by-the-Oregon-Humane-Society-220353521.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+etannert Posted August 21, 2013 Author Share Posted August 21, 2013 I can't help but think of the old saying, where there's smoke there's usually a fire. Regardless of whether every little thing we've heard about these guys is true - there sure does seem to be a lot of smoke surrounding the Austin Aquarium owners and their animal husbandry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+brian.srock Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 Who counts snails and feeder fish as deaths? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mFrame Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 Who counts snails and feeder fish as deaths? From the article, the mgmt is stating that a disgruntled employee "reported" this to try to make the aquarium look bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Planeden Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 I can't help but think of the old saying, where there's smoke there's usually a fire. Regardless of whether every little thing we've heard about these guys is true - there sure does seem to be a lot of smoke surrounding the Austin Aquarium owners and their animal husbandry. i'm not going to disagree with that. i was just trying to offer more info that puts this one into context in order to be fair. i just want to make sure we condemn them for the correct fires. the trial about that illegal harvesting (or the destruction of evidence related to it) starts in a month. the results of that will be very telling. and, the oregon humane society investigation (if it occurs) will shed light on the fish death. that one is still in the he said/they said stage. i tried to look up typical fish death numbers in public aquariums, but it seems difficult to find (with my google skills anyway). but one artical that i found was talking about how difficult mortality rates was to determine and use as an indicator of husbandry skills (natural ife spans, fragility of species kept, etc). it even pointed out that people often use those numbers to try to make aquariums look bad. it was a scientific journal artical and in no way related to the oregon aquarium matter. i just thought it was interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robb in Austin Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 I think it is reasonable to extrapolate number of deaths from our experiences as hobbyists. Obviously, some fudge factor has to be accounted for in the fact that most public aquariums have QT setups and many hobbyists dont. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sholzrichter Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 From an article, the own estimates that the Portland Aquarium houses 10,000 animals representing 3,000 species. Given that number, 200 deaths in three months would represent an annualized mortality rate of 8 percent. That means 200/10000=0.02. I think that 2% of death rate in 3 months is reasonable. I am sure the death rate in fish stores is higher than 2%. We all have had dead fish in our hands too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Mlaw Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 I think I'm about to make the same point Robb just made, but if you take the number of gallons of water I have in aquariums over the last year and the number deaths I've had and extrapolate 200 doesn't sound that extreme, especially as it sounds like there may be some question as to the validity of the number. I have roughly 250 gallons of fresh and saltwater going at the moment. In the last year I have had 11 fish die for various reasons. (looking at that number does not make me happy.) I've had CUC members die but can't get a reasonable count on that so won't bother. That means that for every 23 gallons of water I keep I lose 1 fish per year. So if we assume that they have the same level of skill that I have (I hope they are better) and are subject to the same diseases and accidents (freakin brooklynella and stray voltage!) then if they keep 4,600 gallons of water going they are going to suffer 200 losses. That doesn't seem unreasonable. I do believe that my losses this year have been a little higher than normal do to an accident and illness and I don't expect to repeat so that skews the numbers a bit and I think that their numbers are too high. They should be able to do a better job. Assuming of course that any of this is true. Keep in mind that this is the same company that Jake posted that email from an ex employee. It's pretty clear that the employees don't like them. They may have good reason to not like them but hold your judgment until you actually see them in action. If they are as bad as many fear we'll all know really quickly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+brian.srock Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 I'm really not worried about the deaths since they can try to play the feeder fish card but we don't really have all the facts on what species and for all we know they could of been vandals. I'm more interested in what other like minded people say about it on other fish forums or yelp. I take their opinion as a whole and decide if I want to spend my money there and as of right now I will not be in line on opening day. I'm with etannert, theirs a lot of smoke so you won't see me walking into a smoking building for no reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Planeden Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 i think, and from the scientific artical i read, comparing public aquariums to ours is not really fair for a couple of reasons. obviously, they are professionals and have more experience (i hope) than most of us do. but, they also have vet care that we do not have. i saw a fish at the seatle aquarium where they had removed an eye do to infection. how many of us will do surgery on a fish? on the other side, though. they often keep some of the most delicate species. ones we wouldn't (or shouldn't) even think about trying. also, there are some that are simply short lived species. so, how these things balance is tricky. some will decrease the number, some will increase it. i am not qualified to answer what the net result is. but, my gut would say that the public aquariums should do better than we do. but, the only reasonable comparison would be between other public aquariums. here is the artical i keep mentioning (that i only skimmed because it's long and full of science). http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2009/12/fish2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jestep Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 i saw a fish at the seatle aquarium where they had removed an eye do to infection. how many of us will do surgery on a fish? My Vortech MP10 did successful eye surgery on my yellow tang... Kind of hideous on one side now. Not sure if anyone makes glass eyes for tangs. I'm just sticking with a wait and see approach on this. Too little information and too much hearsay to make any real conclusions on anything. All of the negative press, less the indictment in Idaho, seem to stem from former employees. Taking those a bit with a grain of salt, although I can't picture why someone would deliberately put their neck out for a slander/defamation lawsuit if it wasn't at least mostly true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juiceman Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 I'm wondering how they're going to handle parking at that location?! It's not big at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mFrame Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 A reminder that we have no validation that Jake's post was actually from a former employee and as such it was removed. There's no issue discussing the facts as we know them and having a healthy dose of skepticism but please adhere to the Forum Rules. That said, the director of the aquarium, Shaun, has made the following offer. With pending litigation he's limited in how he can publicly respond until then. The Austin Aquarium has offered to host our club and to allow interested members to take a "back stage tour" to determine for ourselves what we think. There's a lot that can and will happen before then, but let's keep in mind that there is at least the offer of some transparency once their operation is actually running. I'm reserving judgement until then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(Bio)³ Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 A reminder that we have no validation that Jake's post was actually from a former employee and as such it was removed. There's no issue discussing the facts as we know them and having a healthy dose of skepticism but please adhere to the Forum Rules. That said, the director of the aquarium, Shaun, has made the following offer. With pending litigation he's limited in how he can publicly respond until then. The Austin Aquarium has offered to host our club and to allow interested members to take a "back stage tour" to determine for ourselves what we think. There's a lot that can and will happen before then, but let's keep in mind that there is at least the offer of some transparency once their operation is actually running. I'm reserving judgement until then. You can run a restaurant and give a health inspector the time to come by and your going to get good marks.... wait until he shows up unannounced to see the real hazards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mFrame Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 A reminder that we have no validation that Jake's post was actually from a former employee and as such it was removed. There's no issue discussing the facts as we know them and having a healthy dose of skepticism but please adhere to the Forum Rules. That said, the director of the aquarium, Shaun, has made the following offer. With pending litigation he's limited in how he can publicly respond until then. The Austin Aquarium has offered to host our club and to allow interested members to take a "back stage tour" to determine for ourselves what we think. There's a lot that can and will happen before then, but let's keep in mind that there is at least the offer of some transparency once their operation is actually running. I'm reserving judgement until then. You can run a restaurant and give a health inspector the time to come by and your going to get good marks.... wait until he shows up unannounced to see the real hazards. Yes, but if you show up and the restaurant doesn't have stainless steel sinks and all of the required equipment and licenses on the walls no amount of talk would convince you. It should be obvious if there are that many corners being cut. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Mlaw Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 I'm really excited by the backstage tour idea. Thanks for pulling that together Mike.As for the parking I don't know why you think there won't be plenty of room. The parking lot is huge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(Bio)³ Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 A reminder that we have no validation that Jake's post was actually from a former employee and as such it was removed. There's no issue discussing the facts as we know them and having a healthy dose of skepticism but please adhere to the Forum Rules. That said, the director of the aquarium, Shaun, has made the following offer. With pending litigation he's limited in how he can publicly respond until then. The Austin Aquarium has offered to host our club and to allow interested members to take a "back stage tour" to determine for ourselves what we think. There's a lot that can and will happen before then, but let's keep in mind that there is at least the offer of some transparency once their operation is actually running. I'm reserving judgement until then. You can run a restaurant and give a health inspector the time to come by and your going to get good marks.... wait until he shows up unannounced to see the real hazards. Yes, but if you show up and the restaurant doesn't have stainless steel sinks and all of the required equipment and licenses on the walls no amount of talk would convince you. It should be obvious if there are that many corners being cut. All the top end equipment and license on the wall can't control bad husbandry. Who is to say they wont just clean up the place and make it shine for the tour? Kinda like a fish store store does when it is going to have a massive sale, clean up the tanks make it look awesome right before the sale and let it dwindle away after people close the door. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lenver Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 Honestly, they don't really have to do anything for us, we're not the one's who will make or break the financials of this business, general public will. So just telling us that we would be given special consideration is something that tells you about them, on all the accusations everything is pending nothing proven, is easy to get on the bandwagon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
victoly Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 Honestly, they don't really have to do anything for us, we're not the one's who will make or break the financials of this business, general public will. So just telling us that we would be given special consideration is something that tells you about them, on all the accusations everything is pending nothing proven, is easy to get on the bandwagon. Nah, think of it like this: who does a bunch of PR for restaurants around town? Food critics, bloggers and foodie types. I have friends like this and I generally trust their recommendations on restaurants because it's what turns them on. Same deal for all of us and reef tanks. Our opinions carry more weight because we're in the hobby and we tend to disseminate info about them more readily. Check the FB feeds of many of us, you're gonna see info on the austin aquarium, for better or worse. This is nothing more than a PR move to win over the "foodies" of the reef/aquarium world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lenver Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 Understand your point, and respect it. But for me, I've never actually gone to see what a food critic, bloggers or foodie say about a place to eat, it's usually someone I know that tells me about a place. Same thing with this, word of mouth would be what tells people to go, and it won't be about what they don't see, it will be how the place looks and how their kids or they had fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
victoly Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 Understand your point, and respect it. But for me, I've never actually gone to see what a food critic, bloggers or foodie say about a place to eat, it's usually someone I know that tells me about a place. Same thing with this, word of mouth would be what tells people to go, and it won't be about what they don't see, it will be how the place looks and how their kids or they had fun. Right, but in your scenario, we are the friend who get asked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+brian.srock Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 I use yelp or google search to find my info http://www.yelp.com/biz/portland-aquarium-milwaukie-2 It's like Amazonia, We all knew it was dark, dank and wasn't what true reefers wanted when you compare to RCA, Aquatek, and the Dome but they still got better reviews than the portland aquarium and where are they now? http://www.yelp.com/biz/amazonia-aquariums-austin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lenver Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 But the general population is not in the hobby, which means they're not involved in the culture of keeping fish. How many times has anyone here has had someone over like family or friends, and they see the fish tank and start doing something that makes you want to scream like tapping on the glass or scaring the hell out of them. That's how the general population see fish. My point is that we represent a very small percentage of what the general population is, and what will make or break them is what the personal experience is for everyone when they go. Will they have issues if proven on some of the problems that are being presented is true, but it will not break them. Now if they do something like the Amy's bakery thing, then it will definitely go to hell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
victoly Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 But the general population is not in the hobby, which means they're not involved in the culture of keeping fish. How many times has anyone here has had someone over like family or friends, and they see the fish tank and start doing something that makes you want to scream like tapping on the glass or scaring the hell out of them. That's how the general population see fish. Fair enough. I still stand by my statement that the influence of ARC members isn't trivial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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