First Time Build

[Planeden]

Well, there seems to be a lot of competition for build threads right now, so I appreciate you taking the time to view this. As many of you know, this is my first time with water I can't drink in a pinch.

First, nothing salty will be going in here until at least the end of May. But it would be nice if I could have everything I need and ready to setup by then so i can jump right in. Don't be fooled, that is freshwater.

I got a system from Brooks. It is a 40 gallon.

Equipment List:

40 gallon tank

20 gallon sump (holds about 15 gallons)

Eheim 1262-310 return pump

Bubble Magnus NAC-3 skimmer Not running a skimmer

1 or 2 Jebao WP-25 powerheads (ordering 2, but 1 may be enough which means i'll have a spare).

1 or 2 Tunze Turbelle Nanostream 6045 (400 GPH - 1175 GPH)

Heater - currently 100 W Eheim may upgrade or buy a spare.

AI Nano LED lights

AI Super Blue Sol LED Lights

BRS GFO/AC reactor deluxe with MJ1200 pump. (use for AC only)

Rock/Substrate

BRS Reef Saver Dry Rock

BRS Rubble

Caribea 1mm - 2mm Aragonite Sand (Dead)

1" Refugium Mud

TBD Equipment List

Possibly an ATO, but there is not a lot of room in the stand.

Other equipment advice?

I got home with the tank last friday and filled it with water to make sure I got everything hooked up right. I was going to leave the doors off for a while, but:

He has brain damage and loves playing in water. We have to keep all the toilet seats down and dive into the shower. It seems that I will have to lock him up when working on the tank because between the uncordination from the brain damage and the 6 extra toes (and claws), trying to get things done often leads to a loss of blood.

Current Problems:

A small leak in the return pump at the outflow nipple. It is slow enough that I will probably leave it until i have to tear everything down to put saltwater in it.

Gurgle in the overflow box. I don't remember this when Brooks had it running. Maybe it will go away in time. Maybe i've got something a little wrong, got water in a place i was not supposed to be, or just remember incorrectly.

Substrate: We both like the look of "sand". So, we will definitely be going with some sort of "Sandlike" substrate. We are unsure of the depth yet. We were thinking 1" or so, but then I saw the jawfish in my book. He looks like an awesome fish, but wants a deeper substrate. So, we may go deeper or just add a deeper section for him.

Stocking: This part is very fluid as yet. Eventually it will probably be a full reef system. To start with we may go with less rock (two decent-sized piles), a few fish, and some mobile invertibrates. Eventually adding corals, anemones, and sponges. We will probably start with liveaquaria.com's "saltwater for beginners" as a guide and pick items from there. I will add a list as we narrow it down. Once I post a list, I will request a lot of feedback here for anyone willing to spare knowledge.

Water: I am having trouble coming to terms with dumping 4 gallons of water for every gallon we get. I have no use for the waste-water as I don't have plants to water, well four cacti which will drown at that rate. So, I am thinking about this DI like filter or buying water. I know that the filter will be expensive. At minimal performance it will probably be about the same as buying water without the lugging jugs about. From what I have read, though, it will pull out most of the nasty stuff that an RODI system does. Except Phospate, which is what has prompted the possible GFO reactor if i can't macro algea that away.

Cover: I will probably want a cover in case of jumpers. Anyone know anyone that can make me a glass or lexan top that hinges for easy feedings. I haven't looked, so this may be a common sized tank that i can just buy one off the shelf. DIY is not my strong suit, so buying may be preferable to building. Screen top may be another option (read about that in a thread today).

I hope to make this as self sustaining as possible and use aquatic life to regulate things. Using macro algea to filter out Nitrates and Phosphate, and clean up crew to eat the nuisance algea that comes in, for example. Obviously, I do not expect a biosphere that waters, feeds, and cleans itself. But given an option between a gadget and a crab, I would prefer the crab.

Please feel free to offer any advice or criticism. I am new and know that I know very little. I may question your advice, but it is part of my learning process. It may come across as argumentative, but it most likely is not.

I appreciate your time, and I will try to make this as entertaining as possible. If you don't like my sense of humor, perhaps you will like the tank build and vice versa.

[subsea]

Consider this link as a source of natural reef keeping info. He starts at the bottom of the food chain with the bacteria.

http://www.chucksaddiction.com/cleanupcrew.html

[+KimP]

Yay! I'm glad to see your build thread started. A couple things popped out at me first. One thing is the rodi waste issue. I have mine hooked up to the washing machine and it's mounted on the wall next to it. I just run the "waste"water into the washer and use it to do laundry. No waste.

The other thing is a cover. I have plenty of screen top materials to make a cover. I have the clear mesh from brs. I can make you one really quick if you don't want to diy. It's very easy! The only thing is you have a rimless tank so you'd need tabs siliconed in the corners for a lid to rest on. It'll mess up the rimless look a little. Something to think about if you want to keep fish that tend to jump. I don't know anything about making a glass top for a rimless tank.

[Planeden]

Consider this link as a source of natural reef keeping info. He starts at the bottom of the food chain with the bacteria.

http://www.chucksaddiction.com/cleanupcrew.html

Thank you very much for the link. Between this and the other two in jmvannas's thread it seems my evening plans may have changed.

Also, for the anti-skimming crowd, it is my understanding that going skimmerless is usually considered more of an expert thing. That novices can likely save themselves a lot of trouble by using a skimmer. But, will a skimmer be in conflict with the natural reef environment by taking nutrients away from what an extreme cleanup crew would eat? I mean, that clearly makes sense, but at the same time, it seems like you would really have time the additions of the clean up crew to avoid chemistry issues.

I should have probably read the provided links before posing this question. So feel free to just tell me to read if that is the case.

[Planeden]

Yay! I'm glad to see your build thread started. A couple things popped out at me first. One thing is the rodi waste issue. I have mine hooked up to the washing machine and it's mounted on the wall next to it. I just run the "waste"water into the washer and use it to do laundry. No waste. The other thing is a cover. I have plenty of screen top materials to make a cover. I have the clear mesh from brs. I can make you one really quick if you don't want to diy. It's very easy! The only thing is you have a rimless tank so you'd need tabs siliconed in the corners for a lid to rest on. It'll mess up the rimless look a little. Something to think about if you want to keep fish that tend to jump. I don't know anything about making a glass top for a rimless tank.

Yes, I almost added a drumroll for you.

Unfortunately, my washing machines is one that drains before it starts, so it would just keep my clothes soggy until I washed them.

For the lid, I didn't think about the rimless part. Honestly, I am not partial to the look of rimless, this one just happened to be. But, perhaps a screen would be a better idea so that it can just sit on top of the glass and if it falls off it won't break. Thanks for the input.

[victoly]

Water: I am having trouble coming to terms with dumping 4 gallons of water for every gallon we get. I have no use for the waste-water as I don't have plants to water, well four cacti which will drown at that rate. So, I am thinking about this DI like filter or buying water. I know that the filter will be expensive. At minimal performance it will probably be about the same as buying water without the lugging jugs about. From what I have read, though, it will pull out most of the nasty stuff that an RODI system does. Except Phospate, which is what has prompted the possible GFO reactor if i can't macro algea that away.

If you buy water from somewhere, they are likely dumping water as well. Just plumb a RODI in-line to a drain and call it a day. There is a small subset of systems that function appropriately on non-RODI water, and generally these are for very experienced reef aquarist (timfish is the prime ARC example).

Also, for the anti-skimming crowd, it is my understanding that going skimmerless is usually considered more of an expert thing. That novices can likely save themselves a lot of trouble by using a skimmer. But, will a skimmer be in conflict with the natural reef environment by taking nutrients away from what an extreme cleanup crew would eat? I mean, that clearly makes sense, but at the same time, it seems like you would really have time the additions of the clean up crew to avoid chemistry issues.

The skimmer is going to be pulling out dissolved organic matter, which the cleanup crew would be unlikely to feed on. It has also been my experience that if you overstock cleanup crew, you're going to have a pretty big die off. Additionally, if you don't feed heavily enough, your cleanup crew tends to dwindle in numbers, which leads to a die-off, which leads to algae, which is what you were trying to avoid in the first place. I advocate a small, sustainable cleanup crew of hermits, nassarius, cerith, fighting conchs and limpets to keep nuisance algae under control and to keep the sandbed free of food crumbs.

I don't really see it as an expert/non-expert thing when it comes to skimming. It's an additional tool in the kit that many people choose to use in combination with other methods. It's popular because it's generally simple to operate, and has beneficial side effects (aeration most notably).

[Planeden]

If you buy water from somewhere, they are likely dumping water as well. Just plumb a RODI in-line to a drain and call it a day. There is a small subset of systems that function appropriately on non-RODI water, and generally these are for very experienced reef aquarist (timfish is the prime ARC example).

The skimmer is going to be pulling out dissolved organic matter, which the cleanup crew would be unlikely to feed on. It has also been my experience that if you overstock cleanup crew, you're going to have a pretty big die off. Additionally, if you don't feed heavily enough, your cleanup crew tends to dwindle in numbers, which leads to a die-off, which leads to algae, which is what you were trying to avoid in the first place. I advocate a small, sustainable cleanup crew of hermits, nassarius, cerith, fighting conchs and limpets to keep nuisance algae under control and to keep the sandbed free of food crumbs.

I don't really see it as an expert/non-expert thing when it comes to skimming. It's an additional tool in the kit that many people choose to use in combination with other methods. It's popular because it's generally simple to operate, and has beneficial side effects (aeration most notably).

Yeah, we'll what makes you a water expert...oh wait. I think the filter is basically just the DI media with some AC first. I wish I could get accurate TDS information on it, though. Someone using it in New York claimed 0 TDS and the sales rep said it pulls out heavy metals but not all the little stuff RODI does. The good news about it is that the canister is cheap, so if I try it and don't like it I won't be out a whole lot. Then I can get the BRS super water saver one.

If I do get one, do you know how I could test it? Aside from TDS and standard reef testing supplies is there anything else I can look at without being a chemist/professional water person?

For the buying water I was going to pretend its magic. You know, out of sight out of mind. .

For the skimmer, I think the expert only part may be having a better understanding of reef chemistry to ward off problems. It has never been explained, just sort of stated. Not that experts don't run them, just the new people should.

[victoly]

Basically the things that you're trying to keep out of your tank via the RODI are ammonia, silicates, chloramine, phosphates,nitrates and anything else that contributes to TDS. Ammonia, Nitrate, Phosphate and TDS are all pretty easy to test for. Silicates, and chloramine are a little less easy, but there may be folks out there who have the test.

As far as the skimmer goes, the idea is that you're getting rid of some of the primary dissolved waste/nutrients before they have a chance to break down further and fuel algae growth or negatively impact water quality.

[subsea]

Consider this link as a source of natural reef keeping info. He starts at the bottom of the food chain with the bacteria.

http://www.chucksaddiction.com/cleanupcrew.html

Thank you very much for the link. Between this and the other two in jmvannas's thread it seems my evening plans may have changed.

Also, for the anti-skimming crowd, it is my understanding that going skimmerless is usually considered more of an expert thing. That novices can likely save themselves a lot of trouble by using a skimmer. But, will a skimmer be in conflict with the natural reef environment by taking nutrients away from what an extreme cleanup crew would eat? I mean, that clearly makes sense, but at the same time, it seems like you would really have time the additions of the clean up crew to avoid chemistry issues.

I should have probably read the provided links before posing this question. So feel free to just tell me to read if that is the case.

Will a skimmer be in conflict with natural reef keeping techniques? It depends on what you want in your system. Instead of target feeding filter feeders, I run high nutrient systems. I have much biodiversity in this tank, including numerous feather dusters, sponges, tunicates, Sea Apples and Flame Scallops. Most of the filter feeders I keep may be considered advanced. However, the method is simple to operate. It is economical and very low maintenance.

[Brooks]

Glad to see this up and running, Dennis! Looking great!

[Planeden]

Thanks victoly and subsea. that is definately good information to think about.

[Planeden]

Glad to see this up and running, Dennis! Looking great!

Thanks. One of these months it may have life in it. Other than my and the cats paws.

[JamesL]

Looks like you are off to a good start ... and lots of research going on too

[Planeden]

Looks like you are off to a good start ... and lots of research going on too

Thanks James. Since I am not starting yet, but seem to be a bit obsessed at the moment, research is really all I can do. .

note: i suppose my "nice start" is mostly attributed to brooks since all I have done so far is move it home and set it up the way he had it (if i got it right).

[Planeden]

Question of the day: GFO/AC reactors

Something like this BRS GRO and Carbon Reactor or a DIY one I have been playing with on a canister filter.

Just looking for opinions of this. I didn't really think I would run GFO until I started considering the a water source that may not pull out phosphate and silicates. I am thinking about having a lot of macro algea in my display as well as fuge that may help ward off pest algea.

I ran AC on my FW tanks while they were setting up, but now I just run it when I have medicated with something. So, I am unsure of that either.

Civil detailed discussion/back and forth are fine with me.

Thanks, Dennis

[Planeden]

Subsea, I just noticed that I didn't say that those pictures are great. Thanks for that. I'm still a bit concerned about me and "advanced" anything, though. But I like the idea. I am thinking about starting with a skimmer (after a cycling period) and as I get more advanced adding some of the more advanced filters to wean off the skimmer. Adding an airstone or something to replace the lost bubbles. of course, my "thinking" is swinging daily, so who knows.

[+brian.srock]

I would throw a skimmer on at least at the beginning phase. If you just need a temp one I have an HOB you can borrow. I would also pick up a TDS meter so when you pick up water you can test it.

[Planeden]

thanks brian. i have a skimmer that came with the setup. i'll look for a TDS meter.

[Planeden]

I think I have decided to try going with a DSB fuge and plenty of macro algea both in the fuge and in the display to pull nitrates, phosphates, and silicates out of the water. So I don't think I will be going with (starting with) GFO. I am still on the fence about AC. But, since I don't run it in my FW tanks with no water coloring issues, I will probably start without it and if everything turns yellow add it later.

anyone have any thoughts on this?

[+brian.srock]

Going with a DSB i would highly recommend taking a trip to Patrick's place to check out his set ups.

[Planeden]

Going with a DSB i would highly recommend taking a trip to Patrick's place to check out his set ups.

i definately want to do that. i seemed to have scored an invite today, so that's awesome. he is also just 10 to 15 minutes from me.

[subsea]

I think I have decided to try going with a DSB fuge and plenty of macro algea both in the fuge and in the display to pull nitrates, phosphates, and silicates out of the water. So I don't think I will be going with (starting with) GFO. I am still on the fence about AC. But, since I don't run it in my FW tanks with no water coloring issues, I will probably start without it and if everything turns yellow add it later.

anyone have any thoughts on this?

On reef tanks, I would always run activated carbon. There are many chemicals given off by coral to protect themselves from encroachment. It is classic chemical warfare. Do not wait for yellow water to know that you have a problem. I change out small amounts frequently.

Patrick

[esacjack]

planeden, instead of wasting 4 gallons for every 1 gallon of RODI, consider upgrading the membrane to a 150GPD system. You can buy the 150GPD water upgrade system from BRS, and it will cut that down significantly! It pays for itself the first time you make water.

http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/brs-150-gpd-water-saver-upgrade-kit.html

[+brian.srock]

I'm going to have to pick up one of those water upgrade kits myself. Thanks for posting.

[subsea]

With respect to phosphate, you are correct about macro absorbing nitrate and phosphate. Macro consumes 100 molecules of nitrate to one molecule of phosphate. No matter what you do, phosphate will get into your aquarium. I would use a phosphate resin that changes color when used up. Also understand this about phosphate and phosphate resin removal, it will only remove inorganic phosphate dissolved in the water column. Organic phosphate will enter sand bed as detritus and it will accumulate without proper consumers. When organic phosphate accumulates in sandbed, cynobacteria mats are the best bioindicator of phosphate that can not be measured in the water column.