subsea Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 I consdered this post on my sponsor forum, but decided this forum better served more people. Many criticisms for DSB and refrugiums methods is there were more inherrent risk with natural methods. I agree with qualifications. If you implement these methods improperly it might not work right. If you overfeed your system, you may have excess high nutients with excess nuisance micro algae. If you mix the wrong CUC with the wrong tank inhabitants it might not work well. I seek to excel at my hobby. If hobiest do not want to learn more about this wonderfully complex subject, then it is best to perhapes do a FOWLR (fish only with live rock). Less risk. If you want to know more about NNR (natural nitrate reduction), then join this thread and we will give it a whirl. Addicted to it. Patrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scutterborn Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 I've got love in my heart for chemical diffusion. I'm in! - Ben - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subsea Posted October 4, 2012 Author Share Posted October 4, 2012 Chemical diffission and osmosis are brothers. As a new enginner in traning at a 300MW combined cycle power plant, gas turbine with waste heat recovery boiler, I called a union laborer down on his report showing full bottles of nitogen. Because I did not check them but relied on his report, I got egg on my face, when under the scrutny of upper management. Because the date of the filed report was six months before the scrambled egg event, I apologized to this Dow union operator in Freeport, Texas in the winter of 1974. I learned that nitrogen molecuse can pass thru steel and other membranes. It is called the law of partial pressures. Thermodynamics 101. That is why a circus ballon deflates over time. Helium has migrated thru the rubber membrane. And so it is with the migration of water thru the depths of the Jaubert Plenumn. I am most familiar with Jaubert Plenumns and mud filters with vegatable filters (macro and turf algae scrubber), but I have read on most natural techniques until I have exausted the internet. Only a little exagaration. In reading Julian Sprung and Charles Delbeek, there assertation is that circulation thru dsb is caused by vector lines caused by circulation in the tank. I can not buy into that at a 4" depth. While I respect the knowledge of both of those men, I will list four doctors of science that imply it is electrical chemistry similiar to valance numbers in the chemistry chart of elements. Rob Toon, Ron Schmiek, Bob Goemns and Sam Gimble. Because scientist disagree, I always am willing to hear knowledge and truth from any source. On this point, I must say that I am an "old school" Southern Gentleman. Mutual respect works for me. It is my desire to illuminate the deep dark subject of NNR so that individuals can make informed decissions on methods to use. I will go where you inquire information and knowledge. If I do not know enough, we will find out together. Let the party begin. Patrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bige Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 I would like to learn more as well. Are there any coral that can't be kept with a dsb? Like Sps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bige Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 I have been looking at the Tampa bay web site and I like the natural look of their sand and rock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scutterborn Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 I would like to learn more as well. Are there any coral that can't be kept with a dsb? Like Sps. A DSB doesn't dictate what you can and cannot keep. It's simply a passive, natural nitrate reducer. - Ben - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subsea Posted October 5, 2012 Author Share Posted October 5, 2012 I would like to learn more as well. Are there any coral that can't be kept with a dsb? Like Sps. A DSB doesn't dictate what you can and cannot keep. It's simply a passive, natural nitrate reducer. - Ben - While I agree with that, I feed heavy and run high nutrients. Not a good combo for SPS. I have never bothered with SPS because of high upkeep and high light requirements. I find plenty of beauty in LPS, NPS, softies and sponges and such. I find that stocking loads should include similiar demanding livestock. Mixing SPS with high nutriant demanding corals in not a good mix, imo.There are plenty of DSB running SPS tanks. Nothing new under the sun. Patrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subsea Posted October 5, 2012 Author Share Posted October 5, 2012 I have been looking at the Tampa bay web site and I like the natural look of their sand and rock. Fifteen years ago, I viewed TBS as the cats mew. Very desirable. http://www.gulf-view.com/ This is where I got the rock. It is located in 30' of water 20 miles further offshore than TBS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bige Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 Thanks for that website. Their stuff looks very good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subsea Posted October 5, 2012 Author Share Posted October 5, 2012 Thanks for that website. Their stuff looks very good. Dale Barger is diver owner of Gulfview. His rock farm was referrd to me by Russ Kronewetter, owner of Gulf Coast EcoSystem. Russ has dived at each site and like me he recommends both rock farms. I think Dales minimum order is 20 lbs at $100. However, you will not ge the same select rock. I pay more money per lb and we have a long term contract in the works. Patrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bige Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 If this is the lr you will be selling then ill wait till you are up and running. Do you plan on carrying the live sand as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subsea Posted October 5, 2012 Author Share Posted October 5, 2012 All top end combo rock will be catalogued with details of weight and diversity with a price and listed on my website 12 October. Sales will begin, the day of the frag swap. With the best of the rock, Chris is working out details of using a silent auction. Not to be misunderstood, but I reserve the right to refuse sale of this combo live rock if I think that it may not survive in your system. Much of the biodiversity on this rock is listed by Live Aquaria as "expert only". It thrives in my high nutriant systems. http://www.castillecoralranch.com/ At present, I have 1000 lbs of mature live sand for biological filtration. I will give 1 lb gifts to all customers that are ARC premium members. If you come to my farm, you will leave with a gift, use Cajuns call that laignappe. That would include one lb of live sand or perhapes,if you want, five lb of tomatoes. In addittion to ediable macro, I grow most all of my vegatables that I eat. I have sought advice from many sources to provide a quality product. I will supply sprigs of display quality macros from $2 to $20. I will also supply $5 economy combo rock to newbies that are premium members. Between Chris and I, we will supply your macro needs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subsea Posted October 6, 2012 Author Share Posted October 6, 2012 Why would a reefer want to include a waste water treatment plant(DSB) in the bottom of there reef tank. Because it processes waste and feeds the tank. Jaubert plenums with coarse substrate relies on bacteria only to do its job. A DSB with small grain size, .1mm-2mm, relies on both bacteria and micro inverts to process and feed. http://www.ronshimek.com/deep_sand_beds.html http://www.dtplankton.com/articles/refugiums.html http://www.dtplankton.com/articles/sandbeds.html There is plenty here to discuss. La bonne temps roulee, Patrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subsea Posted October 8, 2012 Author Share Posted October 8, 2012 The term natural nitrate removal was coined by Bob Goemns in speaking of his application of the Jaubert Plenumn. While it is true that denitrification can only be achieved in an oxygen reducing enviroment with uptake by bacteria, there are more ways to reduce nitrate. Uptake of nitrate helps grow coral mass, Nitrate and phosphate uptake both happen at the same time with macro growth. all macro will uptake heavy metals. When working at a waste water treatment facility, we used Water Lilly to cleanup nutriants and heavy metals. These biomasses were harvested and allowed to go thru posseses to significantly reduce pathegans, then they were used as compost on agriculture land. When first initiating the program, the city paid farmers to accept this source of benificial reuse. After two years, the city saw the obvious and wanted revenue to offset expenses. The farmer saw the sense of it and he paid the city to take there ****. Patrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HaysStanford Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 This may be a stupid question, but doesnt water contain oxygen, meaning that the plenum filled with water is actually also fill with oxygen molecules? Or does water house individual oxygen molecules? If water didnt house individual molecules then would oxygenating the water just create more water (which doesnt make sense since that doesnt happen)? I guess I kind of answered my own question but I want to make sure there isnt some other explanation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HaysStanford Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 Im asking that because anaerobic nitrifying bacteria need a area void of oxygen to survive, or am I wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subsea Posted October 8, 2012 Author Share Posted October 8, 2012 Im asking that because anaerobic nitrifying bacteria need a area void of oxygen to survive, or am I wrong? Dissolved oxygen in the water is not the the same as the molecule of oxygen combined with two molecules of hydrogen. Nitrification requires aerobic bacterIa which use oxygen and consume ammonium and nitrates to produce nitrate. As water goes deeper into the sandbed the oxygen level decreases. Denitrification occurs most efficiently in reducing oxygen atmosphere with facultative bacteria. At anaerobic conditions, sulfide bacteria reduce nitrate to hydrogen sulfide. Does that answer the question? Sorry, I was not sure of the question. Patrick Patrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HaysStanford Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 Yes! Thanks for clearing that up! Ill probably be using the Jaubert Plenumn method in my 40 gallon reef tank, so I was just trying to make perfect sense of it all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subsea Posted October 8, 2012 Author Share Posted October 8, 2012 Hays, Will you have a sump? Depending on your stocking load you may want more variety of biodiversity with HOB filters using rubble as a bio matrix to grow pods. Refugium sumps take you to the highest level of natural reefkeeping. Many have used Aquaclear 110 HOB with a flow rate of 500 GPH. Some have modified HOB to include light to grow chaeto. What is in your present system and what type of system would you like to have? Patrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HaysStanford Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 The setup I have is still in progress of being built. I plan on making a sump out of this 29 gallon aquarium I have laying around. I plan to make as much room as I can for the refugium, while still having space for a reactor or two as well as a skimmer and a return pump. The skimmer im going to get is the bullet 1. I also plan on piping the overflow to where it goes into a plastic tote drawer with three drawers. The first drawer will be filled with filter floss so no debris get into the sump (and I also like it more than a filter sock). The second drawer will be filled with bioballs, because I have drilled holes in the all both drawers to make an efficient wet-dry filter. I also plan on using the method you described in this forum. Right now I currently have almost all of it except for the skimmer and the sump hasnt been built yet. I really dont like HOB skimmers because I have done some research that has led me to conclude that they only remove 5-10% of DOCs, while a good skimmer like the bullet 1 removes 25-30% DOC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subsea Posted October 8, 2012 Author Share Posted October 8, 2012 Depending on your bioload and how much food you add, you may well find that the skimmer is unnecessary. What kind of reactors are you talking about? If your Jaubert Plenumn substrate is aroggonite, then you should get pH buffering as well as trace mineral addittion. Patrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
victoly Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 The setup I have is still in progress of being built. I plan on making a sump out of this 29 gallon aquarium I have laying around. I plan to make as much room as I can for the refugium, while still having space for a reactor or two as well as a skimmer and a return pump. The skimmer im going to get is the bullet 1. I also plan on piping the overflow to where it goes into a plastic tote drawer with three drawers. The first drawer will be filled with filter floss so no debris get into the sump (and I also like it more than a filter sock). The second drawer will be filled with bioballs, because I have drilled holes in the all both drawers to make an efficient wet-dry filter. I also plan on using the method you described in this forum. Right now I currently have almost all of it except for the skimmer and the sump hasnt been built yet. I really dont like HOB skimmers because I have done some research that has led me to conclude that they only remove 5-10% of DOCs, while a good skimmer like the bullet 1 removes 25-30% DOC. I don't know if you have a build thread setup already, and if you do I can continue this there, but I'll just drop one thing: You may be working against yourself by having a wet/dry component with bioballs. If you intend to have a DSB and LR/LS in the display tank, you should have ample biological filtration. Bioballs are fine at converting NH3->NO4->NO3, but if you don't stay on top of cleaning out the bioballs (removing them and rinsing out detritus with RO or NSW), in addition to having good mechanical filtration prior to where they enter the bioballs, they have a tendency to have longterm nitrate creep. At best they are a redundancy to your system, at worst they are a nitrate problem. Ultimately this kind of all hinges on what you intend to keep, so if you have a build thread, point me there and we can chat in a more appropriate place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HaysStanford Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 You all have great points! After hearing what you have to say I will probably just find some other use for that second drawer. I am using aragonite live sand, but Ive been under the impression that it wouldnt be enough. I plan on having a good number of corals, fish, and inverts, but do you think the sand alone is enough? I want pretty clear water so I think ill stick with a skimmer just to be safe. Also, I plan on using a carbon and GFO reactor from bulkreef supply and I plan to create myself a plankton reactor, although it may not work because I will have to build the first model on my own since I cant find any DIY videos that i like. I guess I should move this discussion to the aquarium builds section. Ill post the link after I make it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HaysStanford Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 http://www.austinreefclub.com/topic/24211-40-gallon-breeder-with-29-gallon-sump/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subsea Posted October 10, 2012 Author Share Posted October 10, 2012 http://www.saltcorner.com/Articles/Showarticle.php?articleID=117 Bob Goemans wrote the book on plenumns. This site has a diverse library. Buried in its archive is a write-up on Sailfin Mollies in salt water. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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